Batting the pitcher 8th

Rod · **Posted:** Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:56 pm

Are you making the argument that Jose Abreu should bat first for the White Sox?

Darkside · **Posted:** Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:59 pm

lipidquadcab wrote:

You must have missed this guy's work...

http://score670.com/phpBB/search.php?author_id=10716&sr=posts

That's just delightful. :lol:

Darkside · **Posted:** Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:59 pm

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Are you making the argument that Jose Abreu should bat first for the White Sox?

Who were you asking?

Rod · **Posted:** Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:01 pm

Darkside wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Are you making the argument that Jose Abreu should bat first for the White Sox?

Who were you asking?

You. The guy who is insisting the object is to score the most possible runs over the course of the season.

Darkside · **Posted:** Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:03 pm

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Darkside wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Are you making the argument that Jose Abreu should bat first for the White Sox?

Who were you asking?

You. The guy who is insisting the object is to score the most possible runs over the course of the season.

Oh. I didn't think you were asking me since that has positively nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Rod · **Posted:** Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:05 pm

Darkside wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Darkside wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Are you making the argument that Jose Abreu should bat first for the White Sox?

Who were you asking?

You. The guy who is insisting the object is to score the most possible runs over the course of the season.

Oh. I didn't think you were asking me since that has positively nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Well, it does. You're just too dim to know it.

Darkside · **Posted:** Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:07 pm

Ok dude.

RFDC · **Joined:** Sun May 11, 2008 4:11 pm **Posts:** 57200

jimmypasta wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

jimmypasta wrote:

Baseball has been around since 1875 or so. How many thousands of Major & Minor league managers did not bat the pitcher 8th in that span of time? Of course guys like LaRussa & now Maddon have a better idea. Like my original post said,I would rather have a guy that bats everyday in the 8th spot.

Guys rode horses around for a thousand years before Daimler and Maybach invented the automobile. Where would you like me to hang up your saddle, jimmy?

Technology is constantly changing but baseball has pretty much remained the same.

That sounds right but looking at it a little more indepth will show that it is a hollow statement.

At its core baseball is still the same as it was when created. But so is transportation. Whether it is a horse and buggy or the latest sports car the idea is the same--to get from point A to point B.

Things in baseball are constantly changing just like modes of transportation and technology are constantly changing. There are hundreds of things that are different about baseball than they were in its original form.

In the big picture of the game I just do not think this is a big deal.

Rod · **Posted:** Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:13 pm

RFDC wrote:

In the big picture of the game I just do not think this is a big deal.

That's absolutely correct. You can shuffle a batting order anyway you want and the results aren't going to be drastically different.

Of course, you would think common sense would say you want your best hitter getting the most at-bats, but since no one actually does it that way, maybe common sense isn't so common.

Although some can't seem to grasp it, batting Abreu first is the absolute best way to score the most possible runs over the course of a 162 game season. It may not, however, be the best way to win today's ballgame. The issue being that a team cannot bank its runs.

IMU · **Posted:** Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:13 pm

jimmypasta wrote:

Baseball has been around since 1875 or so. How many thousands of Major & Minor league managers did not bat the pitcher 8th in that span of time? Of course guys like LaRussa & now Maddon have a better idea. Like my original post said,I would rather have a guy that bats everyday in the 8th spot.

Batting average was once the end all be all. Doesn't make it right.

Rod · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:40 am

Here's the real truth- batting the pitcher eighth doesn't do shit. It's something weird to do so that certain writers talk about how smart you are. If you were really a progressive manager, really on the cutting edge, really going to do the thing statistics suggest you should do in order to score the most runs, your best hitter should lead off. But that's just too radical for anyone to do right now. The problem being that if your team doesn't do well (even though the batting order certainly won't be the cause of the failure), your ass is going to be on the line for doing such a "crazy" thing.

Similarly, using your best reliever to pitch the ninth starting with no one on base rather than using him in the highest leverage situations, e.g. seventh with two on and one out in a one run game, is likely not the best use of resources. But baseball is a very traditional game. Change comes slowly. And there are other considerations beyond the obvious numbers. Some guys are dominating in the seventh and the eighth but they just can't close out a game. And then there is the matter of the way guys get paid, arbitration based on save numbers, etc.

jimmypasta · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:35 am

Casey Stengel didn't do it. John McGraw didn't do it. Danny Murtaugh didn't do it. Walt Alston didn't do it. Earl Weaver didn't do it. Sparky Anderson didn't,etc,etc.

So the greatest managerial minds in the history of the game didn't but guys like RFDC say no big deal!

RFDC your horses to car argument was nuts. Cars and airplanes improve on time saved going to point A to point B. Batting your worst hitter 8th instead of 9th might mean he get's an extra AB or chances are he comes to bat with somebody on base because he is batting one notch closer to the heart of the order. Batting the pitcher 8th is just crazy talk. Oh yeah,one more thing: Rich Renteria didn't either!

IMU · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:03 pm

Former greatest managerial minds.

Frank Coztansa · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:38 pm

IMU wrote:

Former greatest managerial minds.

2005.

RFDC · **Joined:** Sun May 11, 2008 4:11 pm **Posts:** 57200

jimmypasta wrote:

Casey Stengel didn't do it. John McGraw didn't do it. Danny Murtaugh didn't do it. Walt Alston didn't do it. Earl Weaver didn't do it. Sparky Anderson didn't,etc,etc.

So the greatest managerial minds in the history of the game didn't but guys like RFDC say no big deal!

RFDC your horses to car argument was nuts. Cars and airplanes improve on time saved going to point A to point B. Batting your worst hitter 8th instead of 9th might mean he get's an extra AB or chances are he comes to bat with somebody on base because he is batting one notch closer to the heart of the order. Batting the pitcher 8th is just crazy talk. Oh yeah,one more thing: Rich Renteria didn't either!

JORR summarized things nicely a post above yours.

But I don't expect you to consider it. YOu just like to bitch. No matter what the Cubs do you will find something to bitch about. They have not even played one inning of this season and you are already bitching about stuff.

This is what you will do all season. Enjoy it!

rogers park bryan · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm **Posts:** 81625

Jimmy your reasoning (weve never done it this way before) is just terrible and not even just in baseball

Hilarious that you're bringing up something Tony LaRussa did since he absolutely revolutionized the way bullpens are used.

rogers park bryan · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm **Posts:** 81625

At some point no manager had ever used a closer, a 5 man rotation or a sacrifice bunt.

Hatchetman · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:06 pm

Gets people to stop talking about Bryant

Curious Hair · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:17 pm

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Similarly, using your best reliever to pitch the ninth starting with no one on base rather than using him in the highest leverage situations, e.g. seventh with two on and one out in a one run game, is likely not the best use of resources. But baseball is a very traditional game. Change comes slowly. And there are other considerations beyond the obvious numbers. Some guys are dominating in the seventh and the eighth but they just can't close out a game. And then there is the matter of the way guys get paid, arbitration based on save numbers, etc.

I think the Red Sox tried to go to their #1 reliever as soon as necessary back in 2003, but were met with an uproar of "THIS IS CLOSER BY COMMITTEE!" and then they went back to normal.

Keyser Soze · **Joined:** Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:15 pm **Posts:** 16923

Intentionally walk the 6 hitter to get to Olt and the pitcher. Rally killed.

Walt Williams Neck · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:32 pm

Just stupid

rogers park bryan · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm **Posts:** 81625

Curious Hair wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Similarly, using your best reliever to pitch the ninth starting with no one on base rather than using him in the highest leverage situations, e.g. seventh with two on and one out in a one run game, is likely not the best use of resources. But baseball is a very traditional game. Change comes slowly. And there are other considerations beyond the obvious numbers. Some guys are dominating in the seventh and the eighth but they just can't close out a game. And then there is the matter of the way guys get paid, arbitration based on save numbers, etc.

I think the Red Sox tried to go to their #1 reliever as soon as necessary back in 2003, but were met with an uproar of "THIS IS CLOSER BY COMMITTEE!" and then they went back to normal.

Correct. Trying to remember without Google but it was four guys. I know Brandon Lyon was one of them, Scott Williamson, and Timlin maybe?

The Relief Ace. I think it will be used successfully some day.

Curious Hair · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:21 pm

Was it Alan Embree?

jimmypasta · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:02 pm

rogers park bryan wrote:

Jimmy your reasoning (weve never done it this way before) is just terrible and not even just in baseball

Hilarious that you're bringing up something Tony LaRussa did since he absolutely revolutionized the way bullpens are used.

What was terrible was watching one of the worst hitting pitchers in the game come up with 2 outs and a guy on 2nd in a close game. Of course,they might have walked the 8th hitter to get to the pitcher but I bet a guy like Wainright would try to retire LaStella and get Lester to lead off the next inning but now we will never know.

spanky · **Posted:** Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:14 pm

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Darkside wrote:

You don't think you should score as many runs as possible?

Ideally, I think you should simply score one more than the other team in each game you play. Everything else is meaningless. Literally.

Well then, you have spent a LOT of time arguing things that are literally meaningless. :shock:

rogers park bryan · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm **Posts:** 81625

jimmypasta wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

Jimmy your reasoning (weve never done it this way before) is just terrible and not even just in baseball

Hilarious that you're bringing up something Tony LaRussa did since he absolutely revolutionized the way bullpens are used.

What was terrible was watching one of the worst hitting pitchers in the game come up with 2 outs and a guy on 2nd in a close game. Of course,they might have walked the 8th hitter to get to the pitcher but I bet a guy like Wainright would try to retire LaStella and get Lester to lead off the next inning but now we will never know.

Couldn't even finish off that attempt at arguing your terrible point. Terrible, Jimmy.

Just find something else to complain about or find reasoning better than "well, these other guys didnt do it....and they're pretty smart"

jimmypasta · **Posted:** Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:38 am

rogers park bryan wrote:

jimmypasta wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

Jimmy your reasoning (weve never done it this way before) is just terrible and not even just in baseball

Hilarious that you're bringing up something Tony LaRussa did since he absolutely revolutionized the way bullpens are used.

What was terrible was watching one of the worst hitting pitchers in the game come up with 2 outs and a guy on 2nd in a close game. Of course,they might have walked the 8th hitter to get to the pitcher but I bet a guy like Wainright would try to retire LaStella and get Lester to lead off the next inning but now we will never know.

Couldn't even finish off that attempt at arguing your terrible point. Terrible, Jimmy.

Just find something else to complain about or find reasoning better than "well, these other guys didnt do it....and they're pretty smart"

You keep telling me "I'm terrible" and all I keep doing is displaying cold hard facts which you choose to ignore. The simple fact is Lester batted with a man in scoring position because he was batting one notch higher than the worst hitter in your lineup should be batting. Another fact that 150 years of managerial wisdom says bat pitchers 9th. Guys like you who ignore the truth and the facts to promote your weak argument is what's terrible.

jimmypasta · **Posted:** Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:42 am

I guess I have a "rep" on here of constant bitching about the Cubs. I don't know if anyone has noticed but I'm real excited about this Cubs team. I see a front office who is actively trying to better the team for the first time in 4 years. So it's interesting to me that every other guy on here can bitch about everything under the sun but somehow I am irritating to certain posters.

Peoria Matt · **Posted:** Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:43 am

Great idea if the top of the order can get a basehit.

Matches Malone · **Posted:** Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:44 am

jimmypasta wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

jimmypasta wrote:

rogers park bryan wrote:

Jimmy your reasoning (weve never done it this way before) is just terrible and not even just in baseball

Hilarious that you're bringing up something Tony LaRussa did since he absolutely revolutionized the way bullpens are used.

What was terrible was watching one of the worst hitting pitchers in the game come up with 2 outs and a guy on 2nd in a close game. Of course,they might have walked the 8th hitter to get to the pitcher but I bet a guy like Wainright would try to retire LaStella and get Lester to lead off the next inning but now we will never know.

Couldn't even finish off that attempt at arguing your terrible point. Terrible, Jimmy.

Just find something else to complain about or find reasoning better than "well, these other guys didnt do it....and they're pretty smart"

You keep telling me "I'm terrible" and all I keep doing is displaying cold hard facts which you choose to ignore. The simple fact is Lester batted with a man in scoring position because he was batting one notch higher than the worst hitter in your lineup should be batting. Another fact that 150 years of managerial wisdom says bat pitchers 9th. Guys like you who ignore the truth and the facts to promote your weak argument is what's terrible.

But James, you also had the situation where La Stella led off and reached base, so now you have the top of the order coming up with nobody out and somebody already on.

Batting the pitcher 8th

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