back when we overthrew saddam, we were about to host an historic election for iraq that would have involved all parties- the shites, sunnis, and whatever else. i watched a few documentaries about this. even local iraqi's admit they were excited about the elections and felt it was the first time in their lives they had a real chance to make a modern country that is free and self sustaining, one that involved all religious groups. this was the way the bush administration would have actually proved their intentions of good will, by turning iraq into a true democracy.

right before the election, like a week or so, there was a blackwater operation that was ambushed. you heard about it as 4 military troops being burned and dragged in the streets of fallujah. while the pentagon STRONGY URGED the president to NOT do anything about it, bush was furious. he wanted revenge like the cowboy in him felt that was deserved. while he demanded retaliation, the pentagon and congressional leaders 'did everything they could' to convince the president that the election was too close and it would be detrimental to the overall goal to retaliate at this point. they KNEW that attacking the city of fallujah at that moment would piss off the sunni's.... but bush didnt care.

the president personally overruled everyone and demanded the city be assaulted at full strength as a show of force. a statement that you do not mess with americans. what that turned into was the "fiercest American military operation since the Vietnam War", and the aftermath produced exactly what the pentagon feared- a fractured election.

the sunni's didnt show up on vote day. the election was still held, but half the country felt unrepresented as the sunni's were virtually a no show. TO THIS DAY, THAT IS WHY IRAQ REMAINS SEGREGATED, AND WHAT ACTUALLY CAUSED THE RISE OF ISIL.

so, yeah. thank the bush administration for actually having the right intentions, and actually executing the war well. and thank bush for everything that has happened since that day in 2004 when he decided he wanted to act like a child and ruin everything.

over a decade later, there is FINALLY a chance that real progress will be made to mend that personal mistake. the iraqi government is finally going back to fallujah, and they mean business. it will likely take months before we have an idea what will be made of this, but the odds are ISIL is about to get their biggest blow yet... forget the 1000's of american airstrikes, this is the first real LOCAL push against them they will have seen in a long time. if the iraqi's (by that i mean the ones who have decided they still want a democracy, despite their religious views) are successful, there might finally be a change in mindset against the insurgency- which is the ONLY way ISIL will be defeated.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/xbox/iraq ... ar-AAcVTDh

_________________
the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

So, 11 years ago there was a vote, that never happened and if it happened, they would have been fine? LOL

dont worry, these guys are gonna go kick ISIS ass.

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

the vote DID happen. learn your history (that you lived through at that!)

the problem was everyone voted except the 30% of the population that was pissed off about bush's personal attack on fallujah. because of the sunni no shows, nobody felt the people elected represented the country as a whole, and thats why the government never gained the power required to hold off any insurgencies.

time has healed some of those wounds. this coalition going in to fight ISIL is comprised of shites, kurds, iranians, americans and even some sunni's... again, these are the people that always have and still want iraq to be a democracy that represents all religions in the area.

i just hope it works, because the only way to gain stability in that region is to get a cooperative in power that comprises of people from all parties.

_________________
the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Bush is a huge scumbag, he invaded Iraq for oil...we should have bombed Saudi Arabia not Iraq.

_________________

A vote will easily take care of that....is the point....and this is one version of a story that fits a narrative...I dont believe much that comes out of the middle east as it usually comes with a political edge to it....


read Tom Baer's book "See No evil..."....probably the most truthful and informative account of the middle east out there..and it doesnt say great thing about Bush (The first one)...but at least is the best info out there from someone who was there, he doesnt have sources, he is the source.

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

Right....let's not forget that 29 out of 50 Democratic Senators approved the war. This includes Hillary, John Kerry, John Edwards, Biden, Lieberman.

W is a scumbag, but let's not ignore bi-partisan disasters when they're blatantly obvious.

_________________

Said it since the days of Clinton....not sure anyone makes that fucking place better. Basically = Middle East

This Iran thing might be a concern, as the last thing that was holding it up was Iran Embargos on buying missles....now they have a deal...so did we cave on that?

Iran is like the Cubs asking for night games...each year, they came back looking for a little more and a little more....

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

The war is stupid. I said so back in 2001 and nothing has changed my mind.

My problem is people ignoring basic facts. It was a bi-partisan vote to invade. W asked for it and both parties gave him an express lane. That means they are equally to blame. Assholes.

_________________

is the world better if we didnt go into Iraq? Who knows? Saddam cuts some other deal with Al Qaida...and even worse shit happens?

about to let them have bombing day. They get X number of approved bombs, they all know its coming, so they can tke shelter and they be too busy rebuilding the rest of the year.

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

That's assuming you believe half of the crap regarding Saddam and Al Qaida.
I don't. Most of it is manufactured garbage.

The War cost is dead soldiers, The Patriot Act, Weakened US Dollar (we couldn't afford to pay for the damn war to begin with so we printed free money).

The war gained us a new supplier of heroin and a few international corporations made out huge by doing rebuilding work

_________________

look, the war was nothing but a continuation of the gulf war. we never intended to 'fix' the middle east other than the fact that we didnt want saddam to invade saudia arabia... which would have put saddam in control of a significant portion of the world's oil.

iraqi freedom was obviously to finish what bush senior started, and put an end to the possibility that so much oil would be controlled by a direct enemy of the united states. it had nothing to do with al queda, that was just the convenient excuse at the time. get mad for why they said they were doing it or whatever, but at the end of the day bush jr DID have a valid reason to protect america from losing power. you think opec screwed us by overcharging, imagine if saddam controlled it and wouldnt even sell to us at all?

again, iraqi freedom was lost on one COLOSSAL mistake by one man- george w bush. his unwillingness to see the big picture and subsequently react exactly the way the insurgents wanted him to was what caused the construction of an iraqi democracy to fail. we say it all the time- you cant control millions of people by bombing them... you need to let them take care of themselves and thats exactly what we were trying to do... when bush demanded retaliation for 4 dead 'soldiers' (blackwater agents), the fallout spread wide distrust among the iraqi people and thats why the new government did not gain enough power to sustain itself.

this is not a bunch of shit i made up, all of this information is in multiple documentaries told by historians and actual government agents employed at the time this all happened.

and again, time DOES heal wounds and it looks like we might finally see the turn around we should have seen in 2004. a victory in fallujah these next few weeks will give great strength to the people who vastly outnumber ISIL and its friends... the citizens will have their mojo back, and democracy will once again have a chance to spread some stability in the region.

_________________
the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

I'm no fan of either Party , They were duped n lied to ...everyone was ..Bush-Cheyney -Rove should be hung for treason on the White House lawn .

_________________

Well, IIRC, it wasn't like the Dem Senators who voted "yes" did so by holding hands and skipping through the Capitol building giggling with their Republican counterparts while doing so. They were very much against it until the W and CP WMD dog-and-pony show. IMO if Powell had shown ANY kind of doubt (honesty?), that approval vote easily goes the other way.

_________________
Not a mult.

I'm a skeptic, but I bought in when Powell said we gotta do this ... He had credibility n I believed him... He was the ONLY guy in that administration with credibility.. I believe he was duped ..n he duped me unknowingly.. He retired from politics after that..he was ashamed. The only guy in that whole administration with a conscious.

_________________

If it weren't for the invasion of Iraq we would have focused all of our attention upon Afghanistan and likely would have been more successful and expedient on that front. Keep in mind that we had solid backing (including military) from much of the world until we decided that one war wasn't enough.

_________________
Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.- JD Vance
If you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn’t be pardoned.- JD Vance on the J-6 insurrectionists

MM kind of hit on it already but I didn't (& don't) consider it bi-partisan in the common sense. It was a bunch of Democratic cowards that were scared of being labelled "unpatriotic". W had much of the country on his side after 9-11 and Cheney effectively bullied them into submission. In the end I think Hillary et al look more foolish trying to justify their cowardice.

_________________
Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.- JD Vance
If you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn’t be pardoned.- JD Vance on the J-6 insurrectionists

So you excuse their votes or they are just dumbasses led by the nose? Just trying to follow.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

There's no excuse for anyone who voted yes .. They are either corrupt or lazy-dumb .

_________________

There will never be anything more in Afghanistan than the #1 crop of the country.

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

Where do you read in my comments any sort of defense of the Dems? I'll say it again. They were cowards. They have no one to blame but themselves. They thought the Public sentiment was against them so they chickened out. They do it all the time and it never works out...and they deserve to be held accountable.

_________________
Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.- JD Vance
If you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn’t be pardoned.- JD Vance on the J-6 insurrectionists

I don't disagree, but I still believe we would have quickly met some basic goals, declared victory and got out a long time ago. Iraq stirred things up worse than ever and made even modest gains difficult to achieve.

_________________
Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.- JD Vance
If you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn’t be pardoned.- JD Vance on the J-6 insurrectionists

we went to iraq because we never finished the gulf war. saddam was still there, and eventually he would have regained strength and became the same problem he was before.

we (meaning the us military) wanted a reason to go back without admitting they didn't complete the first mission. had they just said "um, guys, the gulf war didnt really work, it just postponed shit" there would have been huge backlash and a gigantic NO to that vote. using 9/11 was the first time since the gulf war that we had a way back into that area politically. and again, all of it was actually working until bush jr shit his pants and ruined the years of planning and hard work. give his administration credit for getting us back there, for doing a good job, and blame that guy himself alone for ruining it.

_________________
the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Wrong, keep your socks on

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

You have been wrong this entire thread.

_________________
the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Here's my biggest problem. W is portrayed constantly as a bumbling idiot. This bumbling idiot duped the DEMs into voting? Senators have advisors and intel to make these decisions. It's their fucking job. They voted yes. No excuse. They share the blame.

Let's go back to the basic premise of how full-time politicians operate...Republican or Democrat. They are bank-rolled. They get into office and they serve the interests of those who funded them. That is your Iraq war. Mission was accomplished. A very small group of American corporations went into a destroyed Iraq and made TONS rebuilding. Lobbyists happy.

_________________

I agree with you that a lot of companies made money off the war. And thos companies were mostly "friends" of W and/or Republicans in power at the time. I doubt it would be much different if the Dems were and some other war occurred under their watch. That said, I did not then and still do not now believe that W started a war to make his friends (read Halliburton) rich as many assert. He may have been wrong on WMD's or had some grand political strategy or whatever it was that go the US in there but he didn't create it for lobbyists.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

Bill Clinton on the Board of Halliburton as well.
not just the Republicans. They're the same shit show.

_________________