All fair comments above. I just like that the Cubs tore it down, took the pain, and rebuilt from the ground up. I find it much easier to cheer for a struggling Addison Russell than an overpaid Adam LaRoche. Besides, it took Rizzo several years to find his stroke. Not all guys come up like Mike Trout. If the Cubs have some of the right guys, we should expect progression as they gain experience. To judge Bryant, Russell, and Soler based on their initial performance is pretty short sighted.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Right, but so is judging Rizzo on what's likely to be his best season.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I understand there is a certain degree of satisfaction with winning with your own guys. I loved when guys like Magglio and El Caballo developed in very good players.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Sox signed FA's to two positions. They needed at least five more FA's. they can't afford that. you need a farm system to develop some decent cheap talent.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

See we can have a rational discussion about baseball. This is a good development.

I love talking and debating baseball sans the trolling.

Thanks guys.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

See what happens when you post in the Sox section

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

The Sox have been worse than the Cubs the last 2 seasons (and it will soon be 3), and even the past 2 years the Cubs were losing games on purpose while the Sox were "reloading". I guess "The Plan" is better.

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I thought that was last season at age 24????

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"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

Once upon a time the Sox blew it up and started over from the ground up and JR was absolutely crucified by the media and fans. They didn't win it all, but it did work. They had a young group of players they developed and in 2000 made the playoffs.

The Cubs essentially did the same thing and went even further into the farm system / structure and rebuilt the whole thing. It appears to also be working for them, but I don't see the Cubs organization taking the same heat.

I don't think Jerry ever wants that kind of heat again...even though I agreed with it then and I agree with it now. Specific to the White Sox, there's holes everywhere and they have a lot of positions that need to be developed.

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they were only 3 games out at the time, so some criticism may be valid. the main problem is that the centerpiece of the trade was a major POTHEAD!

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Yeah the "Kids Can Play" was not given the same love as "The Plan". Jerry was simply called cheap among the nicer things he was called.

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Elections have consequences.

Yeah, but I totally agreed with Reinsdorf on that. I didn't think they could catch Cleveland in a million years. Did you?

Still, it's a bad thing to tell your fans that you've quit trying to win. The heat the Sox took on that was justified. Even more reason why giving the Cubs a multi-season pass on being purposefully terrible is bullshit. There's a clear pro-Cub/anti-Sox bias.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

How should he be judged?

Why is this most likely his best season? Did you think that with Konerko in 2000?

I was for the trade at the time. turns out we didn't get jack squat in return. as is usually the case the trade partner is going to know their minor leaguers much better than you are.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Keith Foulke and Howry were both very good

yes you are right. Foulke turned out great. he was kind of a throw-in. a soft-tosser. not much of a prospect.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I wouldn't expect Rizzo to ever put up a 165 OPS+ again. I don't believe Konerko ever came close to that. And Konerko played in a different time where drugs were rampant. A 25 year old guy in 2000 was at the beginning of his career. A 25 year old guy now is in his prime. Konerko threw up those good years when he was 35-36. I wouldn't expect that from guys playing today. You're already seeing more traditional career arcs. Guys that maintain the top level into their late thirties are becoming mor scarce.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So do you think that about most of these young all stars?


I remember last year you were ready to declare Harper "just a guy"

Well, I do think this is probably Harper's best year. But maybe he'll have a couple more like it. He's a guy who started very early.

But, yeah, I think most guys will be on their last legs at age 35. That's the way it always was until the late 90s when for over a decade guys suddenly began improving at age 37. I'm sure there will be anomalies, guys like Aaron who didn't have a big drop off until he was past 40. But I wouldn't be signing a 30 year old hitter to a giant 7 or 8 year deal these days.

Maybe Rizzo will be better next season. Who knows? But I don't think it's a good bet to expect him to be a 165 OPS+ guy again.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

fuck if harper aint on the juice. "clean" bodybuilders can't even get that big.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Quintana has almost identical stats as Lester. Scoring and defense are not his main problem. He gives up too many hits and does not strike out alot of batters. No way he is a number 2 this year. Same goes for Lester. Lester/Quintana are pitching like 3/4 starters. Difference is most Cub fans admit Lester did not have a good first half and some Sox fans think Quintana is going to get them a top prospect. Sorry, but he is not that good.

another unverifiable opinion on value

Start with the baseline that he is a young, 200 inning per year pitcher with no injury history who is cost controlled at $5 million per year through 2018 and that alone is going to get you a top prospect. Now add the statistical analysis which is incredibly favorable to him.

Now, you may be right and I may be wrong as, like I said, neither of us know. You, however, have nothing but W/L to support your opinion while I have a mountain of evidence to support mine.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

There is little doubt that a cost-controlled pitcher with numbers like Qunitana would yield top prospects were they to trade him.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

and, a team looking to get him would have reason to believe they were getting him on the cheap as he has gotten better in just about every statistical category each of his four years in the league

He's saddled with the stigma of being acquired off the scrap heap

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Right. I'm in the minority in my belief that he'll pitch well enough to lose most of the time regardless. But my opinion isn't based on this season when he's playing with an historically awful offense and a bunch of guys who can't catch the ball.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Interesting that Sox reclamation is from a scrap heap. Arieta was claimed off of Mt. Cyrus by a really smart genius.

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Elections have consequences.

I don't dismiss your thoughts on W/L with him. One year could be an anomaly. Four is character defining.

A guy pitching that well SHOULD win but he doesn't. Call it whatever you want, that isn't a favorable trait.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

mike luvsssssss the cub

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Jerry has dug his own grave. He's said and done enough of the wrong things at the wrong time to justify a lot of criticism.
1) When he bought the team, he chased away beloved Harry and Jimmy...and was childish / nasty about it.
2) Mis-handled Carlton Fisk in his later years.
3) Held the public hostage while a landmark was knocked down for stale, generic hospital of a ballpark
4) Instrumental in generating a players strike in the same season he had the most dominant team in the AL.
5) Constant bitching / whining about attendance

I agree with all of these criticisms....they happened. It's very easy not to like Jerry. The only thing he's been consistent about during his ownership is breeding a very strange culture of nitpicking, and dysfunction. BUT....one thing I do believe he's always tried to do is field a winning, competitive team and he's also proven to be loyal to a fault.

I think item #4 above was the final nail in the coffin for his credibility. That team was friggin awesome and had a legit chance and he helped it evaporate before the fan eyes. When the White flag trade occurred, he had no credibility left. He was correct...the Sox weren't going to catch Cleveland and it was the right move.

Theo and the Plan had a clean slate with the Ricketts ownership after seeing decades of the Tribune Company idiots running a laughable baseball organization. They get the pass and Jerry had destroyed his.

I don't hate on Jerry, but I've grown real tired of the front office acting like a circus act...and he can control that. Kenny Williams acts like a 13 yr old Junior high school girl. The best thing that could happen is him going to Toronto.

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Last year I remember hearing about how teams were holding on to prospects more. This was specific to the trade deadline, but I think its valid. You dont see a lot of top prospects moved. Not as much as you used to.