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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:40 pm 
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The people on that stage aren't uneducated. They're just pandering to the uneducated whites by suggesting that all their problems can be blamed on black and brown people. And there are many people who are eating that up. It's really vile.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:43 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The people on that stage aren't uneducated. They're just pandering to the uneducated whites by suggesting that all their problems can be blamed on black and brown people. And there are many people who are eating that up. It's really vile.


Actually, they are all highly educated. Who blamed blacks?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:45 pm 
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Scorehead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The people on that stage aren't uneducated. They're just pandering to the uneducated whites by suggesting that all their problems can be blamed on black and brown people. And there are many people who are eating that up. It's really vile.


Actually, they are all highly educated.

Even Huckabee?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:47 pm 
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SH, I am just glad to see all this interest in the Republicans. I find politics to be compelling even if the actual governing part is frustrating. It has to be hard for Liberals to look at the composition of the House or the control of state legislatures and wonder how so many citizens can vote for Republicans.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:48 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Scorehead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The people on that stage aren't uneducated. They're just pandering to the uneducated whites by suggesting that all their problems can be blamed on black and brown people. And there are many people who are eating that up. It's really vile.


Actually, they are all highly educated.

Even Huckabee?


He may be the smartest of them all. The guy has no chance, but he's standing on the national stage plotting his next book. #money

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:48 pm 
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Scorehead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The people on that stage aren't uneducated. They're just pandering to the uneducated whites by suggesting that all their problems can be blamed on black and brown people. And there are many people who are eating that up. It's really vile.


Actually, they are all highly educated. Who blamed blacks?


Crime = blacks
Immigrants = Mexicans

You need to learn the code used by your own party.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:48 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The people on that stage aren't uneducated. They're just pandering to the uneducated whites by suggesting that all their problems can be blamed on black and brown people. And there are many people who are eating that up. It's really vile.


Yeah the brown Canuck Ted Cruz was famously contemptuous of of his Harvard Law classmates who did not obtain undergraduate degrees at major Ivy League schools (i.e., no Brown grads welcome, in more ways than one). Imagine what he thinks of his constituents.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:52 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Scorehead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The people on that stage aren't uneducated. They're just pandering to the uneducated whites by suggesting that all their problems can be blamed on black and brown people. And there are many people who are eating that up. It's really vile.


Actually, they are all highly educated. Who blamed blacks?


Crime = blacks
Immigrants = Mexicans

You need to learn the code used by your own party.


I didnt hear crime discussed once last night. Maybe I missed it but I watched it twice.

Illegal immigration is a problem, no? It isn't just Mexicans coming in illegally.

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Last edited by Scorehead on Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:53 pm 
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Scorehead wrote:
Illegal immigration is a problem, no? It isn't just Mexicans coming in illegally.

Some of them, I assume, are good people.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:54 pm 
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Scorehead wrote:
Illegal immigration is a problem, no? It isn't just Mexicans coming in illegally.
It's amazing how voting season comes around and all of a sudden illegal immigration is no big deal. I wonder why...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:56 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Scorehead wrote:
Illegal immigration is a problem, no? It isn't just Mexicans coming in illegally.
It's amazing how voting season comes around and all of a sudden illegal immigration is no big deal. I wonder why...


Yea...shocking!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:56 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
SH, I am just glad to see all this interest in the Republicans. I find politics to be compelling even if the actual governing part is frustrating. It has to be hard for Liberals to look at the composition of the House or the control of state legislatures and wonder how so many citizens can vote for Republicans.


Democrats win national elections

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:58 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Even Huckabee?


He may be the smartest of them all. The guy has no chance, but he's standing on the national stage plotting his next book. #money

This guy has all the charm of a weirdo doomsday cult leader...he is the one that would have the country run by "god's law" if he could...and he'd have us all back in our 1950's dynamics....nothing like regress to wipe out 60 years of progress.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:04 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Scorehead wrote:
Illegal immigration is a problem, no? It isn't just Mexicans coming in illegally.

Some of them, I assume, are good people.


Image

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:36 pm 
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Scorehead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Scorehead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The people on that stage aren't uneducated. They're just pandering to the uneducated whites by suggesting that all their problems can be blamed on black and brown people. And there are many people who are eating that up. It's really vile.


Actually, they are all highly educated. Who blamed blacks?


Crime = blacks
Immigrants = Mexicans

You need to learn the code used by your own party.


I didnt hear crime discussed once last night. Maybe I missed it but I watched it twice.

Illegal immigration is a problem, no? It isn't just Mexicans coming in illegally.


A problem for who? And let's not pretend that when Trump is slamming immigrants that he's talking about anyone but Mexicans. He can throw in all the "It's not just Mexicans, there are illegal Asians here too" that he wants. He's not fooling anyone. Carson wants to build a Berlin Wall style wall. He actually described it- "You've got two walls with a road in between for armed vehicles." And then that goof actually said Mexicans should be allowed in but only as fruit pickers.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:39 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Scorehead wrote:

I didnt hear crime discussed once last night. Maybe I missed it but I watched it twice.

Illegal immigration is a problem, no? It isn't just Mexicans coming in illegally.


A problem for who? And let's not pretend that when Trump is slamming immigrants that he's talking about anyone but Mexicans. He can throw in all the "It's not just Mexicans, there are illegal Asians here too" that he wants. He's not fooling anyone.

Wasn't that Jeb? :lol:

The whole lot of them are clowns.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:40 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
A problem for who? And let's not pretend that when Trump is slamming immigrants that he's talking about anyone but Mexicans. He can throw in all the "It's not just Mexicans, there are illegal Asians here too" that he wants. He's not fooling anyone. Carson wants to build a Berlin Wall style wall. He actually described it- "You've got two walls with a road in between for armed vehicles." And then that goof actually said Mexicans should be allowed in but only as fruit pickers.
It's a problem for all citizens, but especially those who are unemployed or live in poor areas.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:42 pm 
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Regardless of which nationality or ISIS or whomever is coming in illegally what part of illegal do you have an issue with? I understand land of opportunity and humane arguments but is it really not clear that people want a system in which people were not coming illegally but legally?

I just do not get why you either build a wall or you change to open borders with a different entry system but this ongoing dumb argument makes no sense. Everyone sits around and uses the whole situation and changes nothing. I am tired of hearing about it at all really.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:44 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
A problem for who? And let's not pretend that when Trump is slamming immigrants that he's talking about anyone but Mexicans. He can throw in all the "It's not just Mexicans, there are illegal Asians here too" that he wants. He's not fooling anyone. Carson wants to build a Berlin Wall style wall. He actually described it- "You've got two walls with a road in between for armed vehicles." And then that goof actually said Mexicans should be allowed in but only as fruit pickers.
It's a problem for all citizens, but especially those who are unemployed or live in poor areas.

Why?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:45 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Why?
Well, I take it back.

It's good for the rich people in the country.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:45 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
A problem for who? And let's not pretend that when Trump is slamming immigrants that he's talking about anyone but Mexicans. He can throw in all the "It's not just Mexicans, there are illegal Asians here too" that he wants. He's not fooling anyone. Carson wants to build a Berlin Wall style wall. He actually described it- "You've got two walls with a road in between for armed vehicles." And then that goof actually said Mexicans should be allowed in but only as fruit pickers.
It's a problem for all citizens, but especially those who are unemployed or live in poor areas.


Well, I think the entire point of the United States was that it was welcoming to those who weren't making it elsewhere for whatever reason. Everyone here came from somewhere else. The "BUT WE DID IT LEGALLY!!!" screed is just a canard.

I realize that ideally there would be a better process than what we have. But the Republican party isn't addressing the process. They're bashing the people. For God's sake, there were guys on that stage who are offended by people speaking Spanish.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:48 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
Chus wrote:
denisdman wrote:
For many of you, there was nothing those folks could have said on stage that would make you happy.


Maybe if they talked about something like global warming, income equality, or getting big money out of politics, instead of Planned Parenthood, the fictitious war on Christians, and the gays.



They talked about Global Warming and Income Inequality. You just don't like their approach to the problems. When I watch the Democratic debates, I won't like any of their solutions. It's ok. Like it or not, the Republicans have a political base, and these folks represent different parts of the party. I'd be worried if we all thought the same way. Maybe you think there is one right way of thinking. For my part, I appreciate different ideas to solve problems even though I disagree with many of those ideas.

Can I question why you are watching the Dem debates? :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:52 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Well, I think the entire point of the United States was that it was welcoming to those who weren't making it elsewhere for whatever reason. Everyone here came from somewhere else. The "BUT WE DID IT LEGALLY!!!" screed is just a canard.
Within reason and with logical limits. It's the same reason we aren't taking in 10 million Syrian refugees.

We have unemployment here. We have a terrible minimum wage. We have huge poor areas that are filled, either by causality or correlation, with illegal immigrants. I just hate how it becomes a huge political tool by both sides. The Democrats view illegal immigrants and their friends as votes and that is it. Sure, building a wall is stupid. Deporting them all at once is stupid. There are much better ways to accomplish it.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:58 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
SH, I am just glad to see all this interest in the Republicans. I find politics to be compelling even if the actual governing part is frustrating. It has to be hard for Liberals to look at the composition of the House or the control of state legislatures and wonder how so many citizens can vote for Republicans.


I'm not sure all of the attention is necessarily positive for the party in the long run. Some of this attention is putting ignorant elements of the party under a bright spotlight. Senator Lindsey Graham has called the party’s current frontrunner for President a “wrecking ball” for the future of the Republican Party.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:59 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
Republicans truly believe that you need to create a bigger pie and use education and training to lift people out of minimum wage jobs. The left focuses on pushing up the floor, while the Republicans seek to raise the ceiling. They talked at length about ways to grow the economy

While I'm all for education, this solution raises an interesting scenario. It reminds me of my brother-in-law arguing against universal health care on the basis that there aren't enough Doctors and if everyone could visit a Dr then the rest of us (meaning those with the benefit of having insurance) would have to wait.

So if everyone were educated, the competition for jobs currently requiring an education would be through the roof. What happens then? Those jobs become expendable, salaries and benefits drop. But what about all the minimum wage jobs? They still would exist so how are they filled? Fortunately 2 solutions were mentioned last night: eliminate the minimum wage or as Dr. Carson suggested, give them to illegals (although he would have to expand his plan beyond agricultural jobs).

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
denisdman wrote:
As it should be, their voice counts equally in voting terms.


Sure it does, but do we really want to celebrate the dumbest among us selecting our leaders? To me, the word "liberal" means open minded, willing to learn. "Conservative" just means "that's the way it's always been done". Of course white men who have always been on top are afraid when they see the number of brown and black people increasing. The fact that some of those brown and black people might even have the temerity to speak their minds is truly outrageous to many Republicans. If you turn Fox on at any given moment you have a good chance of hearing Bill O'Reilly or someone else railing about people becoming educated at university.


Are you saying that uneducated white men have "always been on top?"

That idea seems problematic.

Uneducated white men began to vote increasingly for Republicans in the 80s and 90s when the Democrats adopted a neoliberal economic agenda and thereby betrayed their blue collar constituency. Because both parties failed to serve working class economic interests, cultural politics--abortion, gay rights, affirmative action, etc--replaced economic policy as the main factor in determining political allegiance for this voting bloc.

You omitted racism.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:03 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Why?
Well, I take it back.

It's good for the rich people in the country.

:lol:

Illegal immigration tends to depress wages on the bottom rungs of the income strata. They also can displace jobs held by those that BRick mentioned.

Legal immigration can do the same but not as acute.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:06 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Well, I think the entire point of the United States was that it was welcoming to those who weren't making it elsewhere for whatever reason. Everyone here came from somewhere else. The "BUT WE DID IT LEGALLY!!!" screed is just a canard.
Within reason and with logical limits. It's the same reason we aren't taking in 10 million Syrian refugees.

We have unemployment here. We have a terrible minimum wage. We have huge poor areas that are filled, either by causality or correlation, with illegal immigrants. I just hate how it becomes a huge political tool by both sides. The Democrats view illegal immigrants and their friends as votes and that is it. Sure, building a wall is stupid. Deporting them all at once is stupid. There are much better ways to accomplish it.

What are you trying to accomplish specifically? Deporting anyone who is an illegal immigrant? And what would be the better ways to do it?

By almost any estimate, illegal immigrants far outnumber the number of unemployed/low-skill workers. If we deported everyone, gradually or immediately, it wouid be a disaster to several industries. And that's not even getting into the fact that immigration and more open borders help spur economic growth, not deter it.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:09 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
What are you trying to accomplish specifically? Deporting anyone who is an illegal immigrant? And what would be the better ways to do it?
I want American citizens to be working.

The better way to do it is attack businesses hard who employ illegal immigrants.

FavreFan wrote:
By almost any estimate, illegal immigrants far outnumber the number of unemployed/low-skill workers. If we deported everyone, gradually or immediately, it wouid be a disaster to several industries. And that's not even getting into the fact that immigration and more open borders help spur economic growth, not deter it.
Well, you'd control it by opening up legal immigration to adjust.

Industries adjust too. This is always what is thrown out there. "If you don't keep the status quo everything goes to hell!". Not really. People adjust. If prices of goods and services go up well then that is ok with me.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:10 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:

What new ideas did you hear last night that you liked?


I am not sure there is much in the realm of new in the political arena. Here is what I liked.

1) I appreciated Kasich's approach to the Iran Agreement. He is willing to give it a chance and only reimpose sanctions if they violated the treaty.
2) I thought Ran Paul was spot on with the 10th Amendment and State's Rights including drug legalization.
3) There are several tax plans on the table to either move to a deduction less flat tax or a consumption based tax.
4) Several folks recognized a few problems in the immigration system. It was stated that 40% of the "illegal" problem is from folks overstaying visas. Clearly we need a new regime for folks coming legally but overstaying.
5) Christie advocated increased use of nuclear and solar as well as cap and trade schemes to reduce power plant pollution. He cited his own state as improving in that area.
6) Many folks agreed that we need to balance the budget and address the ever growing $18T debt problem. Social security fixes were mentioned by Christie.
7) I liked the debate about the role of the courts and the rule of law. Some argued for ignoring the courts, which of course we should not do. Others stood up and basically said issues like gay marriage are now settled law and we should move on. That was nice to see.
8) Most candidates agreed that we need a new approach to dealing with non violent offenders. That will reduce the amount of people in jail.
9) Everyone recognized our failed approach to ISIS and Syria. I lean toward the approach of having a strong military but rarely using it, meaning dialogue with our enemies while projecting power. I would not want boots on the ground, and lean toward candidates who take a cautious approach to such matters.
10) I do not like the government shutdown idea over "petty" matters. Some want to shut it down again, while others talked about being restrained and pragmatic about budget issues.

There's my top 10. I watch the entirety of both debates.
I agree with several of your points except the flat tax which has been dissected already.
Regarding #10 - we already have the strongest military in the world by a long shot. Putin, Kim Jong-Il and other nut-jobs don't really care. Are you advocating a "tough talk" tactic or a Cold War style face-off with missiles aimed at each other? Personally I'm with Kasich on bringing international consensus and pressure on rogue nations. Otherwise your bluff gets called and its boots on the ground.

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