Jeez. Put the bottle down once in a while scooter.

_________________

Are you really suggesting that Anthony Rizzo's ability to hit a baseball might be dependent upon Joe Maddon?

Was Maddon responsible for Castro's bad first half?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

I rest my case.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Is it possible that Maddon and his staff can see things a player is doing or not doing, offer help and suggestions and improve upon a players skill?
Because it sounds to me like you're suggesting that athletes cannot be coached.
Why bother having managers and coaches at all then?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Someone has to fill out the lineup card.

Why didn't Maddon give great advice last year and make the playoffs?

I think you're selling players short if you credit their success to a guy who sits on the bench clapping while they face Clayton Kershaw.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

You're taking the argument to an extreme. It's not silly at all to think that a coach can help a team to overachieve. He's not responsible for everything, obviously, but he could be responsible for quicker than usual player development or players finding their groove due to the environment he creates. It can't be measured, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'd be willing to credit a great manager in an ideal situation for 5 wins more than the team would have ordinarily had.

I don't think there's anyone arguing that Joe Maddon turned the Cubs from a terrible team into a 97-win team.

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Obviously only 1 team can win a championship.
And so many teams can go to the playoffs.
And clearly talent is important. You don't manage your way to a championship. You still need players.
You clearly believe that the manager is unnecessary and has no effect on the day to day game. I don't think you'll find a single person that agrees with you.
I'm of the opinion that you're simply trolling for reactions.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

There are a lot of people that think a baseball manager is incidental, including most guys who actually do the job. Most of them will tell you, "I'm a good manager when I have good players."

A guy may be a good fit for a team, but all we have to judge on is the team's success. I don't think Ozzie Guillen was any different when he was winning a World Series than when he was run out of town (twice).

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

JORR why do you only see things in one extreme or the other?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

It's not all/nothing. But of course you know that.

No player is ever single-handedly responsible fro winning/losing a game either. Nor are they responsible for managers success.

_________________

You are wrong and I will one day write the sini like post explaining it. Right now, need to focus on the Wildcard, as it is impossible to think about both.

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

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It's not an extreme. There's no real way to objectively judge who is a "good" manager, so all commentary on the subject is claptrap.

Maddon may be a great fit for this team. As you said earlier, "the right guy in the right place at the right time." Last year he may have been the wrong guy in the wrong place as his shtick had worn thin and guys were grumbling about it. Warren the Flamingo may be cute and funny when you're winning 21 games with a 491 ERA+ in the second half. Two years down the road as a pending free agent maybe you're struggling at 10-12 with a 4 ERA and it's "Get that stupid fucking bird away from me."

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

They're not? Then how do we know Ventura isn't the greatest manager of all time?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Okay, you can make the post late Wednesday night.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Could one of you experts please tell me the criteria for judging a good manager? Something other than "everyone knows Manager X is good."

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

How do you know that Bacon isn't the best 2B/3B of all time?
He could be the best in the league next year!
You should stop. This is different from trolling. This is incoherent.

_________________

As there are no statistics available you will be displeased with any opinions offered.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

No, you're not making an argument. Beckham has statistics that only he in responsible for. What are the criteria that determine a good manager since you've already stated it's not wins and losses? Or don't you know because that's the very coherent feeling I'm getting.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Cicero Dave

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

So it's just an opinion based on nothing. Why are you so confident in such an opinion?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

JORR, I'm being serious:

You should create a proposal and submit it to the MLB offices. You could could re-invent MLB thinking, a la Billy Beane.
Teams don't need managers. They simply do no not matter. You could have every team team chip in $10K per season for your salary, and you could just submit a lineup card for them every game. Game decisions after that could be done by the respective GM's or a designee.

You'd save all of the teams MILLIONS of $$$ and you would make a fantastic, easy living. You could probably get free travel and a per diem out of it too.

You are CLEARLY desperate to be innovative in your baseball perspective. That's what this is.

_________________

Interestingly enough, Beane has already suggested that.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

I'm honestly curious... are you stating that because it can't be measured, it doesn't exist?

_________________

If you can't even tell me a single criterion for being a good manager, how the fuck could you possibly tell me who a good manager is? Do you just "know"?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

And yet.....he paid Melvin $3M+ this year.
He clearly sees big value is a manager, no?

_________________

You use anecdotal evidence, as we do with any criterion that can't be measured.

I detest theories of "leadership" within large companies, such as the one I work for. I always have. They are subjective, frequently changing, and - as I have always argued - they can't be taught.

That said, I absolutely believe that good "leadership" exists, and it makes a difference. Surely, you have worked with someone or perhaps for someone who made you better at what you did, right? If not, I guess it'd be hard to describe, but I'd venture a guess that you have.

_________________

I don't think so. He's just doing it the way it's always been done. Unless he's radically changed his philosophy after allowing Michael Lewis to roast the universally liked Art Howe.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Sure, but as none of us has ever been in clubhouse, we can't really speak to any manager's leadership qualities. Our opinions are just claptrap.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

There are no statistics on who is a good Potus or a bad one. There are no stats on who is a good parent or a mediocre one.
Not everything can be quantified. You know this. Any grade school kid knows it. We all know it

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014