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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:29 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
i hate batting the pitcher 8th, and if Maddon or LaRussa or any other manager that has done this or continues to do it could give an explanation that makes sense i'd love to hear it. has Maddon ever come out and explained the advantage he feels they are getting by doing it?



I think the only reason to do it would be if you actually thought the pitcher was a better hitter than the worst guy in the lineup. I could see possibly batting Arrieta or Wood ahead of Ross. I could certainly see batting Gary Peters ahead of J.C. Martin.

Juan Pizarro, too.



Man, some of those Sox teams were weak hitting. I think Peters batted clean up on occasion.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:30 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
i hate batting the pitcher 8th, and if Maddon or LaRussa or any other manager that has done this or continues to do it could give an explanation that makes sense i'd love to hear it. has Maddon ever come out and explained the advantage he feels they are getting by doing it?



I think the only reason to do it would be if you actually thought the pitcher was a better hitter than the worst guy in the lineup. I could see possibly batting Arrieta or Wood ahead of Ross. I could certainly see batting Gary Peters ahead of J.C. Martin.



The theory is that by having a position player bat ninth, your #3 hitter (your best hitter) will have three position players bat ahead of him every time through the order except the 1st inning. This would give him the possibility of more base runners on and possibility of knocking in more runs.


Maddon did this when Rizzo batted 3rd. The last few weeks, he has batted Rizzo 4th and Bryant third. Don't know if that has anything to do with it.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:31 pm 
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jimmypasta wrote:
Wow,you guys are old! :lol:


Wasn't JC Martin a Sox color guy for one season?



I think so.

He was the designated knuckleball catcher. He had a big glove.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:33 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
i hate batting the pitcher 8th, and if Maddon or LaRussa or any other manager that has done this or continues to do it could give an explanation that makes sense i'd love to hear it. has Maddon ever come out and explained the advantage he feels they are getting by doing it?



I think the only reason to do it would be if you actually thought the pitcher was a better hitter than the worst guy in the lineup. I could see possibly batting Arrieta or Wood ahead of Ross. I could certainly see batting Gary Peters ahead of J.C. Martin.



The theory is that by having a position player bat ninth, your #3 hitter (your best hitter) will have three position players bat ahead of him every time through the order except the 1st inning. This would give him the possibility of more base runners on and possibility of knocking in more runs.


Maddon did this when Rizzo batted 3rd. The last few weeks, he has batted Rizzo 4th and Bryant third. Don't know if that has anything to do with it.



It also increases the at-bats of the pitcher. At least theoretically. I think we have to either be SABRmetric or not. It's probably not a good idea to mix up a pot of voodoo and manage a game based on that. All the best and latest information we have suggests the batters should be ordered from best OPS to worst. Very simple. If a guy actually did that, he'd take more heat than batting a pitcher eighth though.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:39 pm 
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Yes, J.C. Martin did do some color for the White Sox.
It may have been back when they were broadcast on the "On TV" Network.
I remember him as being incredibly terrible.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:40 pm 
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I think he had given an explanation once that he did it to allow the nine hitter to see better pitches, especially when it's a young, developing player like Russell.

I'm sure there's logical flaws in there as well as some rationale that has merit.

I don't really care either way. Seems to me like in some situations it will work and in some situations it will bite you.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:41 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
jimmypasta wrote:
Wow,you guys are old! :lol:


Wasn't JC Martin a Sox color guy for one season?



I think so.

He was the designated knuckleball catcher. He had a big glove.

Wilbur Wood, Eddie Fisher and Hoyt Wilhelm.
It always seemed like the Sox had one or two knuckleballers on their roster.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:44 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
i hate batting the pitcher 8th, and if Maddon or LaRussa or any other manager that has done this or continues to do it could give an explanation that makes sense i'd love to hear it. has Maddon ever come out and explained the advantage he feels they are getting by doing it?



I think the only reason to do it would be if you actually thought the pitcher was a better hitter than the worst guy in the lineup. I could see possibly batting Arrieta or Wood ahead of Ross. I could certainly see batting Gary Peters ahead of J.C. Martin.



The theory is that by having a position player bat ninth, your #3 hitter (your best hitter) will have three position players bat ahead of him every time through the order except the 1st inning. This would give him the possibility of more base runners on and possibility of knocking in more runs.


Maddon did this when Rizzo batted 3rd. The last few weeks, he has batted Rizzo 4th and Bryant third. Don't know if that has anything to do with it.



I think we have to either be SABRmetric or not.


The rest of the arguments aside, why would you believe this? Show me an organization that will not stray from sabremetrics ever, and I'll show you a shitty organization. Show me an organization that will never use sabremetrics, and I'll also show you a shitty organization.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:46 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
i hate batting the pitcher 8th, and if Maddon or LaRussa or any other manager that has done this or continues to do it could give an explanation that makes sense i'd love to hear it. has Maddon ever come out and explained the advantage he feels they are getting by doing it?



I think the only reason to do it would be if you actually thought the pitcher was a better hitter than the worst guy in the lineup. I could see possibly batting Arrieta or Wood ahead of Ross. I could certainly see batting Gary Peters ahead of J.C. Martin.

Juan Pizarro, too.



Fergie Jenkins, Bob Gibson, Livan Hernandez, Ken Brett, Fernando Valenzuela

Baumgartner and Glavin too. Maddux to a lesser degree.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:49 pm 
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SteveSarley wrote:
Yes, J.C. Martin did do some color for the White Sox.
It may have been back when they were broadcast on the "On TV" Network.
I remember him as being incredibly terrible.



I think it was before that. When they were on Channel 32.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:50 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
i hate batting the pitcher 8th, and if Maddon or LaRussa or any other manager that has done this or continues to do it could give an explanation that makes sense i'd love to hear it. has Maddon ever come out and explained the advantage he feels they are getting by doing it?



I think the only reason to do it would be if you actually thought the pitcher was a better hitter than the worst guy in the lineup. I could see possibly batting Arrieta or Wood ahead of Ross. I could certainly see batting Gary Peters ahead of J.C. Martin.



The theory is that by having a position player bat ninth, your #3 hitter (your best hitter) will have three position players bat ahead of him every time through the order except the 1st inning. This would give him the possibility of more base runners on and possibility of knocking in more runs.


Maddon did this when Rizzo batted 3rd. The last few weeks, he has batted Rizzo 4th and Bryant third. Don't know if that has anything to do with it.



It also increases the at-bats of the pitcher. At least theoretically. I think we have to either be SABRmetric or not. It's probably not a good idea to mix up a pot of voodoo and manage a game based on that. All the best and latest information we have suggests the batters should be ordered from best OPS to worst. Very simple. If a guy actually did that, he'd take more heat than batting a pitcher eighth though.


well i watched a lot of baseball this year, and i know for certain i said "fuck" a lot more watching the pitcher come up in terrible situations in the first and second innings of games than i said "wow, great thinking" in the rare situations where the 9th, 1st and 2nd hitters all lined up perfectly for whomever was batting 3rd. i admit there were a couple times i know it worked out, but there is no WAY it outweighed the "Oh FUCK" moments of watching a pitcher end the inning with multiple men on or watching the #7 hitter get walked to get to the pitcher.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:59 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
The rest of the arguments aside, why would you believe this? Show me an organization that will not stray from sabremetrics ever, and I'll show you a shitty organization. Show me an organization that will never use sabremetrics, and I'll also show you a shitty organization.



Because it's idiotic to think you can outsmart the numbers. It's like a guy who has a system for betting horses that produces a 5% return. The system selects horse X and that's the bet. But the guy looks at the program and says to himself, "that fucker can't win", so he doesn't make the bet. The thing wins and pays $84.00. Now his entire system, which is running on a skinny margin, is fucked.

If you have the philosophy that the object of the game is to score as many runs as possible (I don't), then there's the best way to do that and that's by getting the best hitters the most at-bats. It's pretty much accepted that the "when" can't be controlled and you should just score as much as possible and hope Pythagoras is right- and he's pretty close most of the time.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:22 pm 
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Terrible analogy, horseracing is fixed. I trust Maddon to make the right call..whether it's his gut or some computer program.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:27 pm 
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312player wrote:
Terrible analogy, horseracing is fixed. I trust Maddon to make the right call..whether it's his gut or some computer program.


It is? Who is "fixing" a race and how? We know baseball has been fixed 1918 Cubs and 1919 Sox at least, plus Rose losing games on purpose.

Anyway, it's a philosophical discussion that goes byond Joe Maddon's "gut". If youre a guy who believes in "gut feelings" I don't ever want to see you bash someone over the head with a statistic. Either the numbers count or they don't. They just can't count when we want them to.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:37 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
The rest of the arguments aside, why would you believe this? Show me an organization that will not stray from sabremetrics ever, and I'll show you a shitty organization. Show me an organization that will never use sabremetrics, and I'll also show you a shitty organization.



Because it's idiotic to think you can outsmart the numbers. It's like a guy who has a system for betting horses that produces a 5% return. The system selects horse X and that's the bet. But the guy looks at the program and says to himself, "that fucker can't win", so he doesn't make the bet. The thing wins and pays $84.00. Now his entire system, which is running on a skinny margin, is fucked.

If you have the philosophy that the object of the game is to score as many runs as possible (I don't), then there's the best way to do that and that's by getting the best hitters the most at-bats. It's pretty much accepted that the "when" can't be controlled and you should just score as much as possible and hope Pythagoras is right- and he's pretty close most of the time.


That's speaking within the context of a single game. Obviously, the goal is to win as many games as possible. But there are certainly long-term goals as well, such as player development, as long as it doesn't sacrifice winning (and in some years, even if it does :) ). Regardless of whether it actually works, I have no problem with batting Russell ninth if he thinks it will make him see better pitches/boost his confidence/whatever other reasons he might have.

Please be aware that I'm not saying it actually does accomplish those things. I'm just saying that it would be ludicrous - and probably even impossible - to always make decisions based on metrics. And I think batting the pitcher 8th is really of little consequence in the larger scheme, anyway. I'm actually surprised you feel differently.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:38 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Please be aware that I'm not saying it actually does accomplish those things. I'm just saying that it would be ludicrous - and probably even impossible - to always make decisions based on metrics. And I think batting the pitcher 8th really is of little consequence in the larger scheme, anyway. I'm actually surprised you feel differently.
So why stop in the playoffs?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:39 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Please be aware that I'm not saying it actually does accomplish those things. I'm just saying that it would be ludicrous - and probably even impossible - to always make decisions based on metrics. And I think batting the pitcher 8th really is of little consequence in the larger scheme, anyway. I'm actually surprised you feel differently.
So why stop in the playoffs?


I'm honestly not sure. I question it myself.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:45 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I don't ever want to see you bash someone over the head with a statistic. Either the numbers count or they don't. They just can't count when we want them to.

I dont see how you can say that.

So if one goes on a gut feeling, ever in their life, they are forbidden from ever using or imploring someone to use data forever ?


I know a lot of traders that go by the book (charting) about 90% of the time but then sometime have great trades on a hunch.

What would you say to them?

The truth is a gut feeling is actually data in a different form. Its based off past experiences.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:47 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Please be aware that I'm not saying it actually does accomplish those things. I'm just saying that it would be ludicrous - and probably even impossible - to always make decisions based on metrics. And I think batting the pitcher 8th really is of little consequence in the larger scheme, anyway. I'm actually surprised you feel differently.
So why stop in the playoffs?


I don't know that it's for the playoffs in general, or just games Lester pitches and Ross catches. With Ross and Lester in the lineup, you have 2 near automatic outs. Any rally stops at the 7th position in the lineup, if Ross bats 7th with Lester 8th and Russell 9th. By batting Lester 9th and Ross 8th, a rally extends to at least the 8th position, where it likely dies with Ross up. I will not be surprised if Maddon reverts back to batting the pitcher 8th when Hendricks and Arrieta pitch, with Montero back in the lineup.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:51 pm 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
I will not be surprised if Maddon reverts back to batting the pitcher 8th when Hendricks and Arrieta pitch, with Montero back in the lineup.


then why didn't he bat arrieta 8th in pittsburgh?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:54 pm 
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man of few opinions wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
I will not be surprised if Maddon reverts back to batting the pitcher 8th when Hendricks and Arrieta pitch, with Montero back in the lineup.


then why didn't he bat arrieta 8th in pittsburgh?


I would imagine the only time he would do it in the playoffs is when Hendricks pitches because he may think he needs more offense. With Lester and Arrietta, he doesn't feel he needs a gimmick to get more runs. He just needs a couple and the pitchers will win it for him.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:55 pm 
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man of few opinions wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
I will not be surprised if Maddon reverts back to batting the pitcher 8th when Hendricks and Arrieta pitch, with Montero back in the lineup.


then why didn't he bat arrieta 8th in pittsburgh?


Lets see how it plays out. Arrieta is a good hitting pitcher too. Lets see what he does tomorrow night. Not saying it's definitely going to happen, but I think it might. Joe likes to keep em guessing too.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:57 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
I will not be surprised if Maddon reverts back to batting the pitcher 8th when Hendricks and Arrieta pitch, with Montero back in the lineup.


then why didn't he bat arrieta 8th in pittsburgh?


I would imagine the only time he would do it in the playoffs is when Hendricks pitches because he may think he needs more offense. With Lester and Arrietta, he doesn't feel he needs a gimmick to get more runs. He just needs a couple and the pitchers will win it for him.


With Arrieta, I agree with you. Lester.....not as much.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:58 pm 
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jake arrieta is a career .154 hitter. it makes no more sense to bat him 8th than it does lester or hendrix or hammel or any of these guys except maybe travis wood.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:00 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I don't ever want to see you bash someone over the head with a statistic. Either the numbers count or they don't. They just can't count when we want them to.

I dont see how you can say that.

So if one goes on a gut feeling, ever in their life, they are forbidden from ever using or imploring someone to use data forever ?


I know a lot of traders that go by the book (charting) about 90% of the time but then sometime have great trades on a hunch.

What would you say to them?

The truth is a gut feeling is actually data in a different form. Its based off past experiences.


I'd say that theyre lucky. I dont think you can philosphically believe in both "gut feelings" and hard numbers. One undermines the other.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:01 pm 
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man of few opinions wrote:
jake arrieta is a career .154 hitter. it makes no more sense to bat him 8th than it does lester or hendrix or hammel or any of these guys except maybe travis wood.


Again, it has nothing to do with the 7, 8, 9 hitters, it has to do with who is batting 3rd and thinking you will score more runs by having more men on base for your 3 hitter.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:05 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
jake arrieta is a career .154 hitter. it makes no more sense to bat him 8th than it does lester or hendrix or hammel or any of these guys except maybe travis wood.


Again, it has nothing to do with the 7, 8, 9 hitters, it has to do with who is batting 3rd and thinking you will score more runs by having more men on base for your 3 hitter.


i understand the theory and disagree with it. if i get the opportunity to score in the 1st or 2nd innings i want a hitter coming up in that spot to drive them in, not sacrifice an opportunity to score so that you might possibly have an opportunity to score the next inning.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:06 pm 
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man of few opinions wrote:
jake arrieta is a career .154 hitter. it makes no more sense to bat him 8th than it does lester or hendrix or hammel or any of these guys except maybe travis wood.


He only began hitting in the National league well into the 2013 season and if you look at his hitting from the All Star game forward this season, Ill bet it's markedly better. 2 Home Runs included. :!:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:08 pm 
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anybody know their record when they bat the pitcher 8th? specifically arietta?


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