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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:01 pm 
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Cubs have to look a year or two down the road when they have to pay all the Babe Ruths they already have. Big money to Heyward does not make sense.

Theo will get a stud pitcher and that's it.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:50 pm 
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Gloopan Kuratz wrote:
Cubs have to look a year or two down the road when they have to pay all the Babe Ruths they already have. Big money to Heyward does not make sense.

Theo will get a stud pitcher and that's it.


A stud pitcher like Price or Zimmerman, along with a 2nd pitcher like Carrasco, Andre Cashner or Tyson Ross via trade or a guy like Leake or Lackey via free agency as a 2nd tier signing. Either way, I think they get at least 2 new starters as well as a stop-gap CF whether it be Span or a lesser offensive player, who is capable of playing a good CF

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:28 pm 
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Why do people throw Zimmerman into the same category as Price and Greinke?

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:37 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Why do people throw Zimmerman into the same category as Price and Greinke?


Because his WAR over the last 4 years is pretty much the same as theirs.


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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:59 am 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Gloopan Kuratz wrote:
Cubs have to look a year or two down the road when they have to pay all the Babe Ruths they already have. Big money to Heyward does not make sense.

Theo will get a stud pitcher and that's it.


A stud pitcher like Price or Zimmerman, along with a 2nd pitcher like Carrasco, Andre Cashner or Tyson Ross via trade or a guy like Leake or Lackey via free agency as a 2nd tier signing. Either way, I think they get at least 2 new starters as well as a stop-gap CF whether it be Span or a lesser offensive player, who is capable of playing a good CF
Oops.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:17 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Gloopan Kuratz wrote:
Cubs have to look a year or two down the road when they have to pay all the Babe Ruths they already have. Big money to Heyward does not make sense.

Theo will get a stud pitcher and that's it.


A stud pitcher like Price or Zimmerman, along with a 2nd pitcher like Carrasco, Andre Cashner or Tyson Ross via trade or a guy like Leake or Lackey via free agency as a 2nd tier signing. Either way, I think they get at least 2 new starters as well as a stop-gap CF whether it be Span or a lesser offensive player, who is capable of playing a good CF
Oops.


He could still prove to be correct if they get Cueto

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:19 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Gloopan Kuratz wrote:
Cubs have to look a year or two down the road when they have to pay all the Babe Ruths they already have. Big money to Heyward does not make sense.

Theo will get a stud pitcher and that's it.


A stud pitcher like Price or Zimmerman, along with a 2nd pitcher like Carrasco, Andre Cashner or Tyson Ross via trade or a guy like Leake or Lackey via free agency as a 2nd tier signing. Either way, I think they get at least 2 new starters as well as a stop-gap CF whether it be Span or a lesser offensive player, who is capable of playing a good CF
Oops.


He could still prove to be correct if they get Cueto

Cubs got the best guy they could get to sign a two year deal.

Hayward still makes no sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:45 pm 
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Josh Timmers ‏@Cubsminorswrap 27m27 minutes ago

Repeat w/o the typo. @jonmorosi reports that Jason Heyward's agents are in "close, close" contact with the #Cubs.

Still not sold on this guy on a minimum of 8/160 which is being bandied about.

Are they maybe just driving up the price for STL or are they maybe all in on him??


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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:13 pm 
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I'm not really big on Heyward but I would love to get Cueto at a discounted price. He may end up being the best starter going forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:15 pm 
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How about trading for Shields?


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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:19 pm 
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Nas wrote:
I'm not really big on Heyward but I would love to get Cueto at a discounted price. He may end up being the best starter going forward.


Cueto is going to get 100M+. No way they sign him.


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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:20 pm 
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Peoria Matt wrote:
How about trading for Shields?


I would do that too but he's a #3. Cueto could be #1a or 1b.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:20 pm 
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Peoria Matt wrote:
How about trading for Shields?


Is owed to much cash (3/65) and has an opt out after next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:21 pm 
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cpguy wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm not really big on Heyward but I would love to get Cueto at a discounted price. He may end up being the best starter going forward.


Cueto is going to get 100M+. No way they sign him.


I would be fine with giving him $20M a year before Lackey.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:59 pm 
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cpguy wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm not really big on Heyward but I would love to get Cueto at a discounted price. He may end up being the best starter going forward.


Cueto is going to get 100M+. No way they sign him.


Already turned down 120

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:01 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
cpguy wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm not really big on Heyward but I would love to get Cueto at a discounted price. He may end up being the best starter going forward.


Cueto is going to get 100M+. No way they sign him.


Already turned down 120


I would go 7years $140M. Maybe front load the deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:02 pm 
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I would give Heyward whatever he wants. Great baseball player. Don't need anymore power hitters. Need more guys who can just put the ball in play. Adding Zobrist and Heyward would be huge.


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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:03 pm 
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Hearing that the Heyward market may be 200 million? Holeeeee fuck.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:04 pm 
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I would rather splurge on pitching and let the kids play. He's not Mike Trout.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:05 pm 
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Dwight Evans is gonna be really pissed he played in the wrong era.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:23 pm 
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http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/12/09/jason-heyward-free-agent-winter-meetings

'A fascinating case': Managers, execs weigh in on Jason Heyward's value

NASHVILLE—What price WAR? No outfielder on the free agent market has signed a contract yet. That’s because the baseball industry is having a hard time coming to grips with the value of the guy who will set the uppermost end of that market: Jason Heyward, a rightfielder who hits like Neil Walker but will get paid like Prince Fielder.

Heyward is the most fascinating free agent on the market. He is causing the greatest collision yet between traditional measurements of elite value and those of modern metrics. Of the 39 position players to have signed contracts worth $100 million or more, Heyward will become the first outfielder to do so without ever scoring or driving in 100 runs. (Only three non-outfielders have done so: shortstop Elvis Andrus, then-catcher Joe Mauer and third baseman Kyle Seager.)

Agents and even club analytics departments scoff at such an old-school, team-dependent frame of reference. They prefer to define Heyward by his Wins Above Replacement, an attempt at a catch-all number that is used routinely when clubs meet with agents about players. WAR is a helpful approximation with some flaws in evaluating defense, but it routinely gets misused as hard data, like a counting stat.

WAR is Heyward’s best friend, rating him as a top-10 player. Over the past two seasons, Heyward ranks fifth in WAR, behind only Mike Trout, Josh Donaldson, Paul Goldschmidt and Adrian Beltre. Since Heyward broke into the big leagues in 2010, he ranks eighth in WAR. Much of his WAR value comes from his superlative defense—even though as a corner outfielder, he averages only 1.7 chances per game over a season.

“We never paid for defense,” said one executive who was a general manager in the 1990s. “I would tell agents, ‘We don’t pay guys for defense.’ And nobody ever tried.”

Now we have more complex and, for the most part, better ways to define what’s valuable in baseball. But we are still in a transitional phase. People don’t easily yield old methodologies such as home runs, runs batted in and where players hit in a lineup. Remember when America tried to transition to the metric system?

But we also have to pick our eyes up off the spreadsheet. Watching a guy play has value, too. That’s why we still have scouts.

No team has rushed to sign Heyward or any outfielder the way they have done with starting pitchers, older relievers and second basemen who will play next year at age 35 (Ben Zobrist). Mere chatter on outfielders has been minimal. Is there hesitation about Heyward even though he is only 26 years old and has the eighth-highest WAR since he reached the big leagues, and even though ridiculous money is flying all over the game?

To find out, I went on a mission here at the winter meetings: Get managers and decision-makers to give an honest field-view assessment of Heyward as a player, not as a WAR machine. I granted them anonymity to assure honesty. It was quickly apparent that I was having a hard time finding anybody who loved Heyward as a player. Plenty liked him enough. But mostly there was concern about paying him as an elite player. So let me start with the one and only manager I found who did love Heyward:

“For me, he is [an impact player],” the manager said. “I say that because he can impact the game in different ways. He can impact the game when he’s not at bat. He can do that on defense and on the bases. He’s a guy that’s not a big power guy, but he could hit 25 home runs if you put him in a place like Yankee Stadium. And he’s what, 26 years old? He’s the youngest guy out there. Plus, guys like [David] Price and [Zack] Greinke are getting 200-plus million dollars and they play only once every fifth day. This guy impacts the game every day.”

Heyward is a free agent at 26 because the Braves started his service time clock on Opening Day in 2010, rather than buying another year of control by waiting a week and a half to promote him. His combination of age and WAR as a player on the open market is exceedingly rare. Indeed, since 1995, Heyward has the fifth highest WAR through his age-25 season, trailing only Alex Rodriguez, Trout, Andruw Jones and Albert Pujols.

However, one common concern I heard about Heyward was the odd way he swings the bat. He sets up as if he were hitting in a phone booth, with his hands tight to his body and his elbows in. He has almost no load with his hands, opens his front hip early, prefers to get his hands away from his body and spins so hard on his front foot that sometimes the outside of his ankle hits the ground. Heyward is much better hitting pitches down and away than pitches in and pitches up. He clubs at the ball more than he swings at it.

He began this past season with a changed setup (neutral stance, bat flatter and no more awkward re-gripping of the bat just as the pitcher threw) but then reverted to an open stance and more upright bat (but still no re-gripping). He hit a career-high number of ground balls this season.

“He scares me,” said one manager. “With that swing, there is a possibility that you sign him to that contract and he just doesn’t hit. That’s a scary possibility. When you sign someone for that kind of money, you want to feel pretty sure what you’re going to get. I don’t think you know what to expect. That swing is so raw. It did get a little better this year, but it’s still raw.

“I’ve seen the metrics. When you look at those numbers, and you see the guys he’s compared with, I just don’t see it.”

Here’s another manager: “That swing scares me. I think you can tie him up, and I don’t see where the power is going to come from, even with his size. Don’t get me wrong. I like him. There’s a lot of things he can do. But he’s not an impact bat.

“I don’t think we’re the kind of team that can afford him. I wish we had that kind of money. But at the same time, if we did have that kind of money, I’d be scared.”

Here’s an executive with a long scouting background:

“I don’t see it. When you sign a guy at those dollars you want the kind of hitter who’s going to hit third or fourth in your order. I don’t see that with him. Really, is he any better than what Paul O’Neill was?”

It was a good question. And it turns out that after the same point in their careers—835 games—Heyward and O’Neill are very much alike:


Image

O’Neill drew raves as a solid complementary player—who hit third most often. The complaint that Heyward is not a middle-of-the-order hitter was a common one among the men who make out lineups for a living. Here’s another one:

“I like him, but I like him only as a complementary player,” said a manager. “He doesn’t hit the fastball really well. You can get the ball in on him. To me, if you’re going to be spending that kind of money, you want somebody who’s going to hit in the middle of your lineup. He’s not that kind of hitter. He’s a complementary type player.”

Heyward has made only 22% of his career starts in the third or fourth spots in batting orders. He most often has hit second. Since 2010, he has hit like Walker, the Pittsburgh second baseman who is a good complementary player. Here's how those two compare over the past six seasons:


Image

Another knock on Heyward is that he does not hit lefthanders, though he did improve some in 2015 by hitting for average against them (.272) but not power (.364 slugging). Among all active players with at least 1,000 plate appearances against lefties, Heyward ranks 117th of 124 with a .351 slugging percentage.

Here’s another manager on Heyward: “The problem with Jason Heyward is that the things you value the most about him now are the things you are not going to have at the back half of the contract: youth and defense. Over time, those only get worse. I would love to have him on a high [average annual value] over a short period of time—give me just his best years—but that’s not going to happen. If I did have him, I would bat him second or fifth, not in the middle. He’s not that kind of hitter. Listen, I get the metrics. I really do. But let’s remember, he’s a corner outfielder. He doesn’t play in the middle. You better love, love, love corner outfield defense to sign him.”

I asked the manager what it would take to sign Heyward.

“My guess is it’s going to be something like eight [years], 18 [million per year],” he replied.

I told him I thought he was decidedly on the light side. Shin-Soo Choo signed for seven years at $18.6 million per year at age 31. Jacoby Ellsbury signed for seven years and $21.9 million per year at age 30. Fielder signed for nine years and $23.8 million per year at age 28. Fielder was the prototypical middle-of-the-order masher that the old school guys loved—and, as a defensively challenged first baseman, one that WAR doubted. From his rookie season to the time he hit free agency (2005 to '11), Fielder ranked 81st in WAR [16.8].

In the four years between the free agencies of Fielder and Heyward, baseball’s annual revenues have grown 27%, from $7.5 billion to $9.5 billion.

“We’ve already seen three pitchers get [more than] $100 million,” continued the manager who guessed Heyward would get $144 million. “Now you’ve got a bunch of outfielders out there looking for $100 million … Heyward, [Justin] Upton, [Yoenis] Cespedes … you’ve got Chris Davis … Johnny Cueto, who if it’s true that he turned down $120 million, I don’t know if he’s got better out there. I mean, how many $100 million guys can you have in one winter? How many can you have around baseball?”

The record for most $100 million contracts dished out to one free-agent class is four in 2013, when Robinson Cano, Ellsbury, Choo and Masahiro Tanaka signed. We may be about to double that record.

“I’m still an old-school kind of guy,” said one executive. “I know RBIs are not the be-all and end-all, but they still matter. [Heyward] doesn’t have that kind of track record. I’ve looked at him, and I am very, very interested in how this turns out.

“It’s a fascinating case. I’m not sure we’ve seen anything like it. I really don’t know where it’s going to end up. But then, I’m amazed pitchers are getting $30 million. If you have an average payroll, around $120 million, and a No. 1 pitcher gets $30 million and a number two gets $20 million, that takes an enormous chunk out of your payroll.”

The best fit for Heyward is where he played in 2015: St. Louis, the team that six years ago gave Matt Holliday $120 million over seven years. The Angels, Cubs, Giants, Orioles, Phillies and Royals are among the other teams that could use an outfielder like Heyward. One general manager told me back in May that Heyward would get at least $180 million—slightly more than the average annual value of Ellsbury over one additional year—and he’s probably right. It’s just that no one is rushing to get there.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:46 pm 
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wow my jason heyward thread is on page 4? i guess the #MoVement has picked up some steam now?

obviously i've been all for this idea since day 1, especially if you wanna go HAM and go trade for jose fernandez..... man if the marlins will give him up for addison russell (as some here have speculated) you do that in a heartbeat and say hello to javier baez: everyday SS. i mean yeah russell has some potential with his defense and the potential for being a pretty damn solid to possibly-good/+ offensive bat, but if you can get jose damn fernandez for this team, especially for a good ~5 cost controlled years.... man you go do that cuz when he's on point he's easily one of the top ~3-5 pitchers in baseball.

opening day 2014 i remember watching all of the #1 aces go in all of their games (at some point) and even with seeing clayton kershaw go for the dodgers a week or two earlier in australia, i said that jose fernandez was the best pitcher i saw on opening day(s) 2014. he doesnt have a mind-boggling array of 5+ pitches he can do.... it's pretty simple and straightforward and right there for you.... but if yu can get past injury (he's had his TJ now and come back to show that he can be at least ~90% of what he was b4 the TJ, granted he DID pick up another injury that had him out another 4-6 weeks after coming back, but i think it was his triceps or his side or something) then yeah, jose fernandez would have a really really good shot of being the overall #1 ace of this staff if arrieta goes down a notch or two from "kershawesque #s" to "ho-hum sub-3.25ERA guy with ~1K/IP+" aka still a top 5-10ish pitcher in baseball.

that said, i can't see the cubs ponying up what it'd take to get fernandez (as miami supposedly asked for corey seager AND julio urias from the dodgers for him, and yeah hey if you saw corey seager play last year and remember that urias is supposed to be up there with that giolito guy in the natinals system for being one of the top 3-5 overall pitching prospcts in the minors, yeah lol the dodgers arent gonna give you a do-over on fernandez in terms of superprospect AND give up a kid who has 2016 rookie of the year written all over him in corey seager, especially for jose fernandez post-TJ. if this was the 2013 winter meetings and we hadnt seen seager come up and look fucking awesome, then MAYBE you can do a trade like that.... but i think the only reasn fernandez might be available is cuz he had his TJ already.

so that said, man, especially if you figure to trade another key bat along the soler/baez...let alone that schwarber/bryant/rizzo tier.... then that's where getting jason heyward would be cromulent and 3/4.

TLDR = holy shit yes go get heyward, especially if you're down to trade some big/OF pieces to get a pitcher like jose fernandez or someone of the caliber (better than lester but maybe not quite BPIB/arrieta-in-2015 good) that the cubs really need. lester as a #2b or #3 = this team is 100% ready to contend in 2016 and should be favorites for the NL central, esp with zobrist around for superutility(TM) and lackey upgrading the haren role (#5 starter) into somene who has a bonafide chance for a 2.75-3.50 ERA with just under ~1K/IP.

TLDR TLDR = GO GET HEYWARD. especially if you're trading some "big" pieces for a top quality pitcher

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:34 am 
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Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS 20h20 hours ago
folks in lobby are suggesting 10-yr deal for jason heyward is very possible #cubs #cardinals #giants #angels #mystery team



Ten fucking years?


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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:46 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS 20h20 hours ago
folks in lobby are suggesting 10-yr deal for jason heyward is very possible #cubs #cardinals #giants #angels #mystery team



Ten fucking years?


Yeah, I'd like to have him but that is a long time. Guy is only 26 but I'd be a little nervous about any more than 7 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:58 am 
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he's a very LARGE man, I can't see him flying round the outfield like superman in his 30s. The bat is OK, but not that amazing.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:04 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS 20h20 hours ago
folks in lobby are suggesting 10-yr deal for jason heyward is very possible #cubs #cardinals #giants #angels #mystery team



Ten fucking years?


That is a lot of years BUT he shouldn't be washed up even at the end of the contract. He'll be younger than Lackey and a little older than Zobrist.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:06 am 
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Andrew Baggarly ‏@extrabaggs 5m5 minutes ago
Not sure if Heyward deal is done, but Giants expected him to choose a club today. And it won't be them. Cubs or Cardinals, likely.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:14 am 
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I feel like the Cubs may be trying to do what they did with Zobrist/Castro and possibly sign Heyward the same time as a corresponding trade of Soler.


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 Post subject: Re: Jason Heyward
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:24 pm 
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If I were Heyward, I would make the contract like Geinke's was where I can opt out after 3-4 years for another prime years payday

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