I saw it on saturday and was suprised to see a thread had not been started on this. I think Moore's movies have gotten progressively less interesting from a purely entertainment perspective. I loved Roger and Me back in my yout, as guerilla journalism can be very funny. This was much les schtiky (help a goy out here), so it allowed me to get up for the necessities of life without stopping the movie.

The topic of his movies are still worthy or analysis. It was interesting to see healthcare analyzed from a few different world perspectives. I am not necessarily a universal healthcare enthusiast, but I cannot imagine there is either a healthcare user or provider (doctors, nurses, technicians) who would not want to see a dramatic change in the way we do business.

In the end, I give it 2.5 bottles out of 4.

I still think Moore is biased. Haven't seen this movie since it was originally released, but I recall that he took several shots at the health care insurers.

I have to laugh when I see an accusation of "bias" used by someone who disapproves of another person's political opinon. It's just another way of attacking the messenger rather than engaging in a substantive debate and is thus the weapon of the demagogue rather than the tool of the informed citizen.

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That's not necessarily true. I have limited time, and as such I can only do due diligence on so many arguments issues. First, I need to listen to the arguments. Second, I need to form my own intellectual argument to rebut the argument, which may involve many, many hours of fact-checking, reanalysis, etc. I simply cannot do that for every opinion floated about by public figures. So I need some hueristic to narrow down the list of what I'm going to pay attention to.

Michael Moore falls well outside of that list for me and many, many others. He's brash, prone to factual errors, and not particularly interesting, thoughtful, or rigorous. He's a bomb-thrower, and while that's going to get you some clout with those that agree with you, he's best at distilling arguments down to their basest level. He's the Ann Coulter of the left, and I feel no more need to engage each of his arguments than you should hers.

No one forces anyone to comment on a given subject here. If one has the time to comment, one should make his contribution an informed one rather than trying to pass ideologically-driven cynicism off as actual information or knowledge.

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There is actual information or knowledge on this board?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHohhhhhhsheeetttaaaaaaHAHAHAHA!

Yeah and I read playboy for the arcticles

Sicko was wack but Moore does bring up important issues.

Something w/ health care is fucked up when I spend $600.00 bucks a month for healthcare for my family. I'm self employed so that money doesn't come easy. Then every time we see the doctor there seems to always be fees up and beyond what my coverage pays for.

Back on point. I'm greatful Moore tries to address the issue. I just wish he was more honest in proving his various points.

Anybody give this flick a spin yet?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411646/


On a related side note, my father-in-law builds vacation houses up in Traverse City, Michigan. He's built two for 'celebrities'. Tim Allen was totally cool - Michael Moore was a TOTAL ass, who refused to look anybody in the eye and talked down to everybody.

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The name's Rockmore. Beef Rockmore

I just finally saw this a couple of days ago. I was impressed; I found it both entertaining and informative. Seeing the examples of Canada, GB, and France (and even to some extent, Cuba), it's pretty damn clear we're taking it in the ass here in the good 'ole USofA.

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The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

I must say, I agree with Seacrest.

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We all have private ails. The troublemakers are they who need public cures for their private ails.- Eric Hoffer

I saw it about a year or two ago. Much was made of the fact that these "documentaries" contain many set up scenes. Moore's movies are presented as documentaries, but he certainly does more than simply record situations and events and let them unfold naturally. He does not present all of the facts, and his scenes are edited heavily in order to make his point. Moore's mike was never turned off at the shareholder's meeting in "Roger and Me" for one of many examples.

This documentary crew tried to get Moore to discuss their film on camera, and were given the brush off for over a year. They document their own attempt to enter and film Moore at one of his speaking engagements, only to be tossed out in the same rude manner that Moore likes to document in his movies, so he can portray himself as the heroic victim.

Moore comes off in this movie, as a total douche bag, both personally and professionally.

What objections, specifically, do you have with Sicko?

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

I didn't see Sicko.

there really wasn't a lot of anti-moore sentiment until after "Fahrenheit 9/11". I remember the most scathing review of "Bowling for Columbine" was that it was "at times, inaccurate" but Moore wasn't being called out by people like Hannity or other conservatives until after F9/11 came out. Then all of the sudden all these people were up in arms about how Moore is anti-American, and how his movies have always been inaccurate and how he always tries to manipulate people for his agenda and that he's been doing it since "Roger & Me".

"TV Nation", "The Big One" and "The Awful Truth", which all were made during the Clinton administration, castrating the American government and corporate exploits, are rarely identified and weren't criticized at all at the time of their release (or for TV Nation and Awful Truth, their air dates on TV). He was mostly lauded until "Fahrenheit 9/11", and now he's seen as a bigger villain than Enron.

While he does come off as pompous and self-righteous, I think his cause is a good one. He's always been about the same thing: exposing America for what it really is. Sometimes we need to look in the mirror and see what we are.

Exposing American for what it really is?
What do you mean? You mean a place where her citizens are well fed? Where her citizen are allowed to worship as they choose? Where her citizens can produce anti American shit like Moore does without being thrown in prison without trial?
right. Michael Moore should try this bullshit in just about any other country and his ass would turn up dead or locked up.
America for what it really is? Well tell me what is that WZ?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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It could be that his cause is to make a shitload of money. So far, so good.

What's anti-American about Moore's movies?


Not likely.


A nation heading down an extremely troubling path.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

You know, MITC sometimes I think you post shit just to get into these arguments.


You're right, he ultra pro-american.

Yeah, likely and likelier. I just read an article about China locking up 78 year old women who had to file a petition to be allowed to protest the government destroying their homes for the Olympics. Yes, MITC it is likely. I cannot imagine how anyone would say otherwise.

It's still the greatest place in the world to live.Troubling path? What is it that troubles you so? Forget petty politics, and think in terms of quality of life. It's wonderful to be here. We're a nation that is indeed a beacon of light in this world.
A troubling path. Please.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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Nothing then. Check.


China isn't most countries.


I don't know about that. It's among the best, to be sure.


The deep, and worsening, divide between the haves and the have nots, and the accompanying rise of moneyed influence in the media and government.


Well, the 40-some million uninsured Americans, for one. Have you seen Sicko?


It's bad enough that we're on the path, but what's worse, is that it's almost hopeless that we'll get off it, as the media has successfully propagandized the population with mindless rhetoric, such as claiming the US is a "beacon of light."

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

I don't want to get into a typing war with you on this. So I'll just say that I've seen Roger and Me and Bowling and parts of Sicko. He's struck me as anti-american. Anti-capitalism. kind of like you, anti-capitalism.

Well, MITC that was one example and an example using a population of over a billion. Then consider Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Russia, {Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, North Korea so on and on and on and on. The vast majority of the worlds popluation lives in countries that would imprison a guy like Moore for the work he does.

Where would you prefer to live? Who's got it better?

This is a free country. There is NOTHING stopping the have nots from learning new skills that could increase their demand in the workplace to turn them into haves. The deeping divide is a manifestation of a lack of personal motivation to improve one's lot in life. In America, no one will give it to you, you need to earn it.
You think you're a havenot? Turn yourself into a have an don't rely on others to do it for you. If you want someone to give it to you move to a communist state and become a cog in the machine.

I have. 40 million uninsure is bullshit bullshit bullshit. I've posted about my associate who lives in Elmhurst, 35 lives with parents, would be considered uninsured in Moore's propaganda becasue he has no insurance policy. However, he receives top quality health care from Dupage County. He is technically uninsured but still can go see a doctor anytime, for less than it costs me, with insurance, to see a doctor. 40 million uninsured... horseshit.

Woah fella, the US being a beacon of light is NOT propaganda. How many millions come here to bmake their fortunes? Where wlse does on eenjoy the freedoms of speech and religion? Where else can someone who is willing to work hard be guaranteed success? Not too many places.
MITC you hate your home or something?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Ah, so there's nothing concrete, it's just a "gut feeling." It seems likely to me that he's anti-propaganda-you-are-indoctrinated-in.


I'm not against capitalism, but I know it's limits. I am fiercely anti-oligarchy however.


Vast majority? I don't think so. Moore'd be fine in Russia, at the very least (probably Iran, and Pakistan as well).


I don't know; I haven't lived abroad. France sure looked tits in Sicko; I damn sure wouldn't mind a 35 hour work week and 5 weeks of vacation.


Except, of course, the government policies that make them helpless to improve their situations.


Oh, I see. That's a satisfying explanation: just like the commercial says, the first step in becoming a millionaire is deciding to want to be a millionaire. The problem is simply that people haven't decided to become millionaires!


Or, alternately, we could just change current laws so that equal opportunity was reality, instead of just rhetoric.


Even granting that.. ok, 20 million uninsured. Whatever. Plus, as you saw in Sicko, there's the fact that even insured people are routinely denied medical care they need.


Most of what's referred as the "western world."


And certainly not here.


No, I just choose to be realistic about it. Our nation didn't get its independence and the opportunity to become great by the ignoring the flaws of British policy. Probably the most insidious example of propaganda coming out of the media in the last decade or so is the idea that it's anti-American to criticize our government; nothing could be further from the truth.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

Call it a gut feeling that is shared with Millions of people. Fine, let us remember this nothing concrete statement.

Not sure about iran and Pakistan? So that's not concrete? You think you'd have freedom to criticize the government in countries where women are refused education? Where they're refused thje right to proper education? Where anyone outside of their Islamic beliefs are hunted down? Oooh Kaay. A little rose colored viewpoint MITC.

So nothing concrete? Just a gut feeling? You want 5 weeks of vacation? My company offers 5 weeks of vacation after 4 years of service, something I've got because I've trained myself on certain VoIP systems and made myself a valuable asset.

What the fuck are you talking about? Which government policy makes someone helpless to improve their situation? that is a bullshit statement.

Exactly. Become one of the best in your field and you will succeed. And being a millionaire is your measure of success? To me success was buying a home, being comfortable with my pay, living within my means and being a contributing member of society. If I work hard and live within my means, I may very well be worth a million and then I can retire. It's a goal, not a ultimate measure of success.

What needs to change? How would you change those laws, and what is currently in place that isn't equal opportunity? EVERYONE in America has equal OPPORTUNITY, it's a matter of choosing to take an oppertunity and turn it into reality. It sounds like you are confusing opportunity with reality. With opportunity you still have to execute.



You've just halved you number. Nothing Concrete? Just kinda made that number up?

Which is a teensy percentage of the human population.

What? Who has worked hard to succeed and was denied? In America, you give honest hard effort and you WILL succeed. Again, this doesn't mean everyuone is a millionaire. This doesn't even mean everyone is a hundredthousandaire, it means living a decent life, comfortable, happy. You work hard, you will succeed here.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Right. The propaganda campaign designed to stifle descent, largely unquestioned by the media and cheered on by numerous talking heads, has been a rousing success. Clearly, you're on board.


Have any evidence to the contrary?


My point is simple: it's very definitely arguable that the US is the best place to live. Have you even talked with a foreigner before?


In France, everyone gets 5 weeks of vacation -even part-time employees. You're making a mistake I frequently encounter: you've earned privileges by making yourself relatively more productive, but what you fail to understand is that everyone cannot be relatively more productive, by definition. For there to be someone relatively more productive, there must be someone relatively less productive.


A nice recent example is the changes made to bankruptcy law, which made it more difficult to declare bankruptcy. And, to stay on topic, there's the lack of UHC, which results in many people being left utterly destitute from a health problem.


Obviously, that can't be a strategy for the nation as a whole.


No, I wouldn't say that being a millionaire is a measure of success. Just being out of debt is a huge success in modern America.


Tax policy and monetary policy, first and foremost.


Uh, no, not everyone has equal opportunity. That's just ludicrous. Do you think the people living 15 miles north of me in Gary had the same opportunity I had? Please.


The point is that there's many millions of people who do not have access to healthcare.


Are you kidding me? If you saw Sicko, you'd have seen several examples. But you'd hardly need to see Sicko; if you're even conscious, you should know of many, many examples.


Couldn't that be said of Orwell's Oceania? Work hard, know your place, learn to be happy with a decent life, and you'll be a "success."

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

No. I've formed my own opinion. A dissenting opinion is not always the result of a propagande campaign, sometimes it's just a dissenting opinion. I've noticed you have a tenancy to immediately dismiss the merit of a dissenting opinion by making broad statements that anyone who does not see it the way you do is flawed or uneducated, when interetingly enough, refusal to acknowlege other's ideas is a form of ignorance.

To the contrary of what? My statement that women in these countries are not even allowed to walk the streets without an escort? That a raped woman in Saudi Arabia is a guilty woman? What are you looking for here?

Yes I have talked to forigners before. Many many many times. I think we agree here. US is the place to be!

Yes, and France does not enjoy our own productivity per worker nor are they as major an ecomonic superpower. the only way France can compete in this meausre was by subverting their economic sovernity by joining the EU. And, I am not tating that my increased productivity is how I get my time off. What I said was that I've stayed employed long enough to enjoy those benefits without having to have them given to me by some fucked up government mandate.

There is no lack of health care. Every county in the US has some form of free health care, paid for by taxpayers, for those who do not have coverage. Again, I specifically gave you a real life example of how the uninsured gets benefits. This argument is getting old.
Now, as for the bankruptcy law, if you don't fuck yourself with poor financial habits you don't need bankruptcy to absolve your financial responsibilites. No one forces one into buying shit you can't afford. Be responsible with your money and you should not need bankruptcy. In fact, bankruptcy is a bullshit concept to begin with, and shouldn't be allowed in general in my opinion. This does not make someone helpless to improve their situation at all. Because they put themselves in that situation and should not look for a bail out.

Why not? That's silly.

This I will agree with, with one caveat. No one in born into debt, people put themselves into debt.

So you're not going to answer the question? this vague and uninspiring answer is useless. What specifically is currently in place that caused an inequality in opportunity?

Isn't there a certain musical family from Gary, african american, that made BILLIONS? Yes, there is opportunity 15 miles away in Gary, why the fuck wouldn't there be?

My uninsured "friend" sure has access to health care. Stroger Hospital is filled to the gills with uninsured who are receiving healthcare. Who are you talking about? Again, every county has some form of county healthcare.

So what is your point? Happy, decent life? What's missing?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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This is true, but of the healthcare professionals I know very few think the answer is universal healthcare. Dealing with medicaid is one of the biggest hassles that they face and if that system is as broken as it is, I have no faith in being forced to use it.

You can view the initial discussion here.
http://score670.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=13060&hilit=universal+healthcare

This was my initial suggestions to improve the healthcare industry without going to true universal healthcare which is a single payer system that would be a trainwreck in my opinion.



The healthcare system in the US has problems, but "true" Universal Healthcare is not the answer. Luckily, "true" Universal Healthcare will never happen.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Do you suppose there's a victim of propaganda who thinks otherwise?


The meme that it's anti-American to dissent with government policy is clearly the result of a propaganda campaign that took place post-911. Perhaps, you, personally, came to that ludicrous conclusion wholly independently of the millions of others who clearly were influenced by rightist propaganda, but I doubt it.


That Moore's brand of journalism would be tolerated in Iran and Pakistan.


Most foreigners I talked to did not come to that conclusion.


So? Why would anyone care about our high productivity per worker, when the workers aren't benefiting from it? And of course they're not the economic superpower the US is: for one, they didn't enjoy the special status post-WW2 of being relatively unblemished by the war, and for another, they only have 1/5th the population the US has.

The ironic thing is, you'd think that US workers would enjoy more benefits, seeing as how more theoretically gets produced per worker. But we don't. We get less. So who, I wonder, benefits from that productivity? Hmmmm.. that's a toughy.


How does joining the EU "subvert" their economic sovereignty?


Whatever; why you get those vacation days is not important. What's important is that all the French workers get them, and that's a serious quality of life issue.

As to your obviously ideology-based description of the policy as a "fucked up government mandate," I ask: do you also believe our 40 hour work week is "fucked up?" Why or why not?


Relevance to my point = 0. The fact is, many people are ruined by illness due to lack of UHC. One untimely illness, and your prospects for success are destroyed.


Right, because no one ever makes mistakes or falls on hard times.


Yes, debtor prisons should surely make a comeback.


Because it's a relative thing.


Yeah, getting things like an education or a house.


Our tax policy keeps people in poverty, as I've outlined elsewhere. And our monetary policy is designed to keep people in debt.


That's just a bait-and-switch (or a switch-and-take, if you're Jurko). I didn't say there was no opportunity in Gary; I said that there's less opportunity in Gary.


Oh, at the end of the day, the emergency room has to admit you. But that's a far cry from healthcare. It'd be much cheaper to treat these people before it came to the point of an emergency room visit.


Freedom and Justice.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

Every economic model in history has had people in poverty. Even communism, which in theory should avoid poverty, has been unable to do so.

The United States economic model has the most ability to change your financial status as any economic model in history. It's not easy and some times it takes multiple generations but it happens. My grandparents came over with very little, and now live comfortably in retirement, my parents are financially stable, and so am I.

In every society, there will be have's and have not's. At least in America, the have not's have a method of changing that status unlike many other countries, such as India.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I agree that it's better than it could be, but I don't believe the specter of poverty is unavoidable. Economic justice hinges on social justice, and I believe that no human society has set for the proper laws to fully enshrine social justice. Robert De Fremery's Rights vs. Privileges does a good job of outlining the two remaining major flaws in the laws of our societies, which result in social and economic injustice, and give rise to the ever-present tendency for wealth to concentrate in the hands of the few.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

Yes, sir. You are my best example.

I disagree with the government on just about everything. I'm as pro-American as you can get. I fully believe in my right to petition my grievences to the government. Not sure what you're talking about.

Would Iran tolerate Moore talking about their President the way he talks about ours (justified or otherwise). I seriously doubt it. Maybe we can send him over there to find out. I wonder if he's have the sack.

Well, they are certainly entitled to their opinion.

each worker is less productive than each American worker. So they are capable of producing less than 1/5th their GDP of the US with 1/5th the workers. Who enjoys the benefits? Well, we do. all Americans.

Serious? You're asking me how joining an economic union with other countries where they cannot decide on their own economic policy subverts their sovergnity?

Why is it unimportant how I got those days but it is important how the French get those days? That doesn't make sense.

No. I haven't worked a 40 hour week in months, it's usually more like 45-50. No I don't think it's crazyu or fucked up, it's the amount of work I do vs. how much my work is valued vs. the going rate for said services.

I doubt that. There's medical care available to all Americans, and once again I point to my shitdick friend who has doctors available to him immediately with his fucked up DuPage Health card. It sickens me that this shitdick doesn't work because he's too damn lazy and tax dollars support his medical care. He does not deserve it.

Mistakes happen, I get that, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't ultimately be responsible for your debt. Discharging any form of debt is bullshit and should never be done. Restructering is understandable and it should happen for those who need it becasue they lost their ability to earn or something catrostrophic happened to them, but some asshole with 30k in CC debt that comes from all the CD's and DVD's they HAD to have and bought on credit shouldn't be forgiven his debt just because he can't pay it.
The bankruptcy system needed to be changed becasue it was being abused. I'm glad it was done. More needs to be done.

There's no need to misquote me or change my message to fit your needs.

These debts cannot be discharged in bankruptcy under either the old or new rules and thus are not relevant in this converstaion.

Any time you're ready to stop evading the question and actually answer it would be fine.
Specifically, what policy keeps people in poverty? Specifically what policy keeps people in debt?
Other than my house, I have not a cent of debt. How did I manage to avoid these scary monetary policies and others did not?

No it is not. There is opportunity. If you really don't think so, what's keeping anyone there? Go. Get elsewhere. My grandparents were completely broke and had no posessions nor opportunity where they came from but still managed to move to the land of opportunity, America. There is no anchor keepiung someone in an economically destitute location.

Why is that a far cry from healthcare? Is that not actually, specifically health care? It is.
And again I reference the godfdamn awful Dupage county health card, which I am sure exists in various forms all over the Country.

We are missing neither.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

So we should be comparing a superpower country to a 3rd world country? It's not like we accidentally became as rich as we did...

We have little to no middle class. Our health care system is awful. Social security...forget about it. Our education system sucks. Outsourcing...

And besides, DS, thumbs down to you for making such obvious observations when clearly I meant that Moore is exposing the AWFUL things that America does, and that is a part...of what...America...is. DUH. Jesus, man...