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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:37 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Barring serious injuries, Bryant may well be in the HOF. I did not say he would be though. I said he would be an All Star several times and an MVP candidate in multiple seasons. Last year was just the tip of the iceberg. Yes, Torres will be even better than Russell.
Which is it, Steve? Do you think Bryant will be in the HOF? Because if you think He will be a legit MVP candidate in multiple seasons, and will make several All Star teams, you are saying that you expect Him to be putting up HOF type numbers throughout his career.


There have been players before that made several All Star teams and were MVP candidates that are not in the Hall of Fame. Guys like Dale Murphy come to mind, as well as his teammate Bob Horner. To make it to the HOF takes sustained excellence. Whether a guy stays as motivated as he needs to be, after winning a World Series or two, making several All Star teams and being an MVP finalist, is tough to predict. But he is going to have some monster years.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:39 pm 
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That really wasn't the context...didn't sound like it was in answer to an Addison question.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:39 pm 
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Steve, I don't think you are able to retain anything except (accept, IMU) water.

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Last edited by Frank Coztansa on Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:40 pm 
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Bob Horner? I'm not sure he ever played a full season.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:47 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Steve, I don't think you are able to retain anything except accept, IMU) water.

wut

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:59 pm 
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Is GoldenJet doing a bit trying to seperate himself from the run of the mill cubbie fans?

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:00 pm 
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JORR is the only baseball fan on this board I can trust to give me his honest opinions. I think everyone but him and I are doing a bit.

And I guess Frank...Frank just doesn't know better.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:04 pm 
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IMU wrote:
JORR is the only baseball fan on this board I can trust to give me his honest opinions. I think everyone but him and I are doing a bit.

And I guess Frank...Frank just doesn't know better.

Extend fan to it's broadest possible definition, and I qualify. I don't lie about my opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:08 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Bob Horner? I'm not sure he ever played a full season.


He never played more than 140 games in a season. Yet despite playing just 124 games in 1980, he had 35 HR and 89 RBI. He had 33 HR and 98 RBI in just 121 games in 1979. 5 years with 27 or more HR's. Injuries were his undoing, but when healthy, he was outstanding. Never spent a day in the minors either.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:17 pm 
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I try to be objective...and I try not to get too caught up in the rah rah...I got all worked up and pissed when the Cubs pussed out in 98...I don't think I went to a game for 4 years after the Karchner/Heredia fiasco. Then I got all worked up in 2003, went to the Bartman game and the elimination game and had my heart broken. I still was hugely optimistic, went out and got season tickets...then watched everything fall apart.

I'm very guarded with my optimism these days.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:17 pm 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Never spent a day in the minors either.
Horner > Bryant

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:18 pm 
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IMU wrote:
JORR is the only baseball fan on this board I can trust to give me his honest opinions. I think everyone but him and I are doing a bit.


False.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:30 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
IMU wrote:
JORR is the only baseball fan on this board I can trust to give me his honest opinions. I think everyone but him and I are doing a bit.


False.

He meant to say real baseball fan

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:49 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Never spent a day in the minors either.
Horner > Bryant


You sure don't live by your statements......

SEE BELOW

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:57 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
IMU wrote:
JORR is the only baseball fan on this board I can trust to give me his honest opinions. I think everyone but him and I are doing a bit.


False.

He meant to say real baseball fan


JORR is one of the best on here on baseball in general and is spot on about the Sox... not so clear eyed in his Cubs observations....he is similar to many of the "subbies aka The Illuminatti" who live in the past (2005 sound familiar ?) and continue to look at The Ricketts Cubs as the Wrigley/Tribune/Zell Cubs...although JORR never uses the 2005 crutch. IMHO

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:03 pm 
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Your caps lock key is going to break before the teams leave Arizona.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:57 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Never spent a day in the minors either.
Horner > Bryant


I was a huge Bob Horner fan and if you look at his numbers and the number of games he played in accumulating them, he had a heck of a career despite the injuries. I believe Bryant will have the better career, because I think he will be healthier and by virtue of that fact, put up better numbers. He already eclipsed Horner's single season RBI total (99-98) in his rookie year. The best is yet to come from Bryant and what we have seen is just the tip of the iceberg. Big years.....HUGE, are on the way. Thank goodness Theo got the extra year of control. I hope his whole career is with the Cubs, but if not, at least Theo kept him from free agency as long as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:48 am 
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THE INQUISITOR wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
IMU wrote:
JORR is the only baseball fan on this board I can trust to give me his honest opinions. I think everyone but him and I are doing a bit.


False.

He meant to say real baseball fan


JORR is one of the best on here on baseball in general and is spot on about the Sox... not so clear eyed in his Cubs observations....he is similar to many of the "subbies aka The Illuminatti" who live in the past (2005 sound familiar ?) and continue to look at The Ricketts Cubs as the Wrigley/Tribune/Zell Cubs...although JORR never uses the 2005 crutch. IMHO


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:52 am 
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This is what is echoing around in leash's head.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:52 am 
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Horner never lived up to what he was supposed to be. He was hurt all the time. His legend comes from his days at Arizona State. I can't think of a baseball comp for him off the top of my head, but I'd compare him to Ralph Sampson.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:58 am 
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Midseason Cub Sox bickering form.


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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:15 am 
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GoldenJet wrote:
I try to be objective...and I try not to get too caught up in the rah rah...I got all worked up and pissed when the Cubs pussed out in 98...I don't think I went to a game for 4 years after the Karchner/Heredia fiasco. Then I got all worked up in 2003, went to the Alex Gonzalez, Mark Prior, Dusty Baker game and the elimination game and had my heart broken. I still was hugely optimistic, went out and got season tickets...then watched everything fall apart.

I'm very guarded with my optimism these days.



FIXED! :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:49 am 
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Like I said...The Bartman Game

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:16 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Hussra wrote:
Rizzo's 2015 BAbip of .289 was slightly below his career numbers.

Bryant's .379 BAbip ranked 5th in the entire league in BAbip in 2015....chances Bryant even breaks .350 in BAbip in 2016?

Russell had similarly inflated rookie BAbip--vs RHP, .358. Russell's mere .208 BAbip vs LHP should increase...but both Russell and Bryant are prime
candidates to regress toward the mean at the plate in 2016. While Rizzo should continue to put up the same numbers he has been.


BABIP is a pitcher's stat.


Uh, pretty sure it is a stat that can be used to analyze both pitchers and hitters.


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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:17 pm 
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One Post wrote:
Uh, pretty sure it is a stat that can be used to analyze both pitchers and hitters.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:33 pm 
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One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Hussra wrote:
Rizzo's 2015 BAbip of .289 was slightly below his career numbers.

Bryant's .379 BAbip ranked 5th in the entire league in BAbip in 2015....chances Bryant even breaks .350 in BAbip in 2016?

Russell had similarly inflated rookie BAbip--vs RHP, .358. Russell's mere .208 BAbip vs LHP should increase...but both Russell and Bryant are prime
candidates to regress toward the mean at the plate in 2016. While Rizzo should continue to put up the same numbers he has been.


BABIP is a pitcher's stat.


Uh, pretty sure it is a stat that can be used to analyze both pitchers and hitters.


How do you want to use it to "analyze" a hitter? Do you understand its purpose? It comes out of the research of Voros McCracken that suggests that what happens once a ball is put in play is generally random. Any pitcher who pitches long enough is going to have a BABIP against right around .300. So it's a useful tool to say, "Wow! They whacked Lester around at a .386 rate on balls in play. That isn't likely to occur again next season." Those numbers are created across huge samples of all different types of hitters.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:40 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Hussra wrote:
Rizzo's 2015 BAbip of .289 was slightly below his career numbers.

Bryant's .379 BAbip ranked 5th in the entire league in BAbip in 2015....chances Bryant even breaks .350 in BAbip in 2016?

Russell had similarly inflated rookie BAbip--vs RHP, .358. Russell's mere .208 BAbip vs LHP should increase...but both Russell and Bryant are prime
candidates to regress toward the mean at the plate in 2016. While Rizzo should continue to put up the same numbers he has been.


BABIP is a pitcher's stat.


Uh, pretty sure it is a stat that can be used to analyze both pitchers and hitters.


How do you want to use it to "analyze" a hitter? Do you understand its purpose? It comes out of the research of Voros McCracken that suggests that what happens once a ball is put in play is generally random. Any pitcher who pitches long enough is going to have a BABIP against right around .300. So it's a useful tool to say, "Wow! They whacked Lester around at a .386 rate on balls in play. That isn't likely to occur again next season." Those numbers are created across huge samples of all different types of hitters.


JORR you are right it is primarily a pitching stat but can be used for hitters....

This is from Fangraphs:

"For hitters, we use BABIP as a sanity test of sorts that tells us if their overall batting line is sustainable or not. Virtually no hitter is capable of producing a BABIP of .380 or higher on a regular basis and anything in the .230 range is also very atypical for a major league hitter. In other words, BABIP allows us to see if a hitter seems to be getting a boost from poor defense or good luck or getting docked for facing good defenses and having bad luck.

A hitter has control over how often they put the ball in play and how hard they hit the ball, but due to the unpredictable nature of luck and defense, their BABIP may not be a perfect reflection of their performance to date and it is easier to observe this fluctuation when looking at BABIP compared to wOBA, OBP, or SLG for example."

further....

How To Use BABIP:

"For hitters, you typically want to adjust your expectations toward that player’s career average rather than league average. Batters have much more control over their BABIP than pitchers do, which is another way of saying that a higher percentage of batter BABIP is controlled by actual talent levels. It’s certainly possible for hitters to improve their offensive game and raise their BABIP, but short, dramatic spikes are usually due to luck.

If a hitter has a .320 career BABIP and all of a sudden has a .260 BABIP over the first month of the season, you shouldn’t just expect them to regress to .300 or stay at .260. In fact, they are probably more likely to have a .320 BABIP going forward. Hitters who consistently hit above or below .300 for their BABIP are not simply getting lucky, they are actually leveraging a skill which needs to be accounted for when analyzing their performance."

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:52 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Hussra wrote:
Rizzo's 2015 BAbip of .289 was slightly below his career numbers.

Bryant's .379 BAbip ranked 5th in the entire league in BAbip in 2015....chances Bryant even breaks .350 in BAbip in 2016?

Russell had similarly inflated rookie BAbip--vs RHP, .358. Russell's mere .208 BAbip vs LHP should increase...but both Russell and Bryant are prime
candidates to regress toward the mean at the plate in 2016. While Rizzo should continue to put up the same numbers he has been.


BABIP is a pitcher's stat.


Uh, pretty sure it is a stat that can be used to analyze both pitchers and hitters.


How do you want to use it to "analyze" a hitter? Do you understand its purpose? It comes out of the research of Voros McCracken that suggests that what happens once a ball is put in play is generally random. Any pitcher who pitches long enough is going to have a BABIP against right around .300. So it's a useful tool to say, "Wow! They whacked Lester around at a .386 rate on balls in play. That isn't likely to occur again next season." Those numbers are created across huge samples of all different types of hitters.

Voros McCracken is the most overrated of all of the McCracken's. Nobody talks to him at our family reunions.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:06 pm 
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Phil McCracken wrote:
Voros McCracken is the most overrated of all of the McCracken's. Nobody talks to him at our family reunions.


:lol: Nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:12 pm 
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Quote:
BABIP, or batting average on balls in play, was originally designed to measure a pitcher's ability to prevent hits on balls in play. Today it's widely used to evaluate both pitchers and hitters, and it's a calculation of a hitter's batting average -- or pitcher's batting average allowed -- on batted balls put into the field of play. That means walks and strikeouts don't count; those aren't batted balls. Nor do home runs; those don't land within the field of play.


http://espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb ... abipprimer

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