They haven't been injured all year. Fact is the performance of this team has become worse since Hoiberg took over. The first proof of that are statements from the players themselves, then Hoiberg's indirect admission that they suck on defense (but are "better in practice" - the sign of a coach in over his head), and then the increasing need for GarPax to issue votes of confidence for Hoiberg from time to time this year when he's only 50-some games into his career as a HC. It's not just personnel - they aren't managed by a competent coach.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

None of it will make much difference. I could find better players in the pro am at Whitney Young than participated in that 4th quarter last night. Holiday, Brooks, Dunleavy, Portis, and McDermott. They countered with Wade, Johnson, Deng, Whiteside, and Winslow. People are wondering why the Bulls were blown out in the 4th.

Snell also was thrown in there too. I was wrong about Tony Snell. He stinks too.

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They also were 10 games over. 500 at some point during the season. People were still saying Hoiberg sucked as a coach. All I have to do is fire up the "Fire Hoiberg" thread. I don't really care about post game statements, locker room talk, or winning press conf. That's talk show psychobabble. I care about what I see on the floor. If you think that a lineup with Aaron Brooks, Etwaun Moore, Taj Gibson, Mike Dunleavy, Tony Snell, Holiday, playing big minutes is going to win games in the NBA then you probably need to learn the NBA.

That is no one's idea of a contending roster. I don't care which coach coaches them.

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I think you're slowly becoming a better NBA poster.

It is okay that you have some different (bad) opinions sometimes, as long as you can support your reasoning. And not go guns blazing when you're wrong.

So with that being said... the Bulls cannot outscore their opponents. This offense, even when healthy, is not good enough to become a championship contender by scoring 105 and hoping to give up less than that. You have to admit by now that 'scoring a ton of points' isn't a winning strategy. This cannot be blamed solely on personnel....personnel trying to put up 120 points per night simply won't play respectable defense. The pre-game last night was Swirsky and Wennington doing nothing but discussing how Miami only relies on defense to win games...and don't have the scoring options that they used to. And yet Miami adapted to the game style Hoiberg wanted just fine, and looked like an offensive powerhouse because the Bulls refused to guard anyone.

I'm not a huge Spoelstra fan, but he can get his guys to play different, successful styles of ball depending on what works on a given night.

Hoiberg has shown to be a one trick pony, and that trick isn't impressive.

This same personnel would be better with any number of different coaches; Thibodeau being one of them. A championship contender? No, not with these injuries. But the team wouldn't be an embarrassment.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Okay...context matters. You seem to be unable to grasp anything outside of a player's individual competence. Again, that's not all that matters. It's a mixture of coaching, talent, and team culture. I'm sorry you don't care about what players say about how the team sucks, as if there are other sources more credible than the guys on the floor describing how they play. Maybe that Orlando Magic college dorm room blog you fancy is a better source on Hoiberg than statements from Pau Gasol.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Let me provide a rudimentary example of what I'm referring to. I'm really hoping how you explain how the coaching became decidedly better with this guy.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... qyFWiOX8MQ

Look at this guy's 1st and 2nd yr and explain how the "coaching" was all that much different.

I'm sure plenty of people, including me, believed that he couldn't coach either after watching that first year.

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Why don't you just come out and say what you really believe? It seems like what you really believe is that coaching doesn't matter, and that the success of a team is necessarily proportional to the talent on the roster. I do believe that if Vinny Del Negro coached the Spurs from 1998 to the present then they would have zero titles at the moment.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

The Bulls are playing 4 guys Moore, Snell, Brooks, and Holiday that are fighting for their NBA life and people are saying that it's not personnel. Your Spoelstra reference doesn't pass the smell test either. He missed the playoffs last season while having a team with more talent than what the Bulls have currently.

It's not about the Bulls trying to outscore people either. It doesn't matter what style of ball that they are playing. It doesn't matter about coach or coaching style either. The most important component to any basketball team is talent and they don't have it.

The great Gregg Popovich only won 17 games his first season in the league. Can you explain how coaching played a part in that?

There is a reason that no one wanted Etwaun Moore. There is a reason no one wanted Brooks. There is a reason that Holiday couldn't get burn in either G.S. or Atlanta. Paxson missed on Snell. Taj Gibson has always been overrated by Bull fans.

These guys are now being asked to play big minutes and they are not capable of doing it because they are not good. I watched that Portland game while out the other night and it hit me that there are good Summer league pro am teams right here in this city that would beat that team. The guys I named are not any good. It's convenient to use an appeal to ignorance argument with regard to Thibs's ability to coach this team. We don't know what he'd be able to do with this collection of bums.

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Who is this talent?

You've already denounced Chris Bosh (who is currently out) and Luol Deng (who is currently old.) Joe Johnson just got there, and is also a shell of his younger self.

Whiteside has been in and out, and he and Wade are hardly volume scorers. The Heat are 28th in the league in points per game.

Dragic is okay, but I'm sure you agree that Derrick Rose is the better PG. And you mention that a team cannot win unless Butler is your third best player on the team.

Jimmy Butler would easily be the best player on the Miami Heat.

So what's going on?

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

As currently constituted:

Deng or Taj?

Joe Johnson or Mike Dunleavy?

Dwyane Wade or Etwaun Moore?

Hassan Whiteside or Pau Gasol?

Goran Dragic or Derrick Rose?

You decide.

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Jimmy Butler would be their best player, but that doesn't resonate because he didn't play last night. Wade is still playing at a high level so I don't know how "easily" enters into either.

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Not one analyst, coach or executive would take Dwayne Wade over Jimmy Butler right now.

That's how.

So you're saying a team with Jimmy Butler as your best player could be much better than the Bulls currently are, yes?

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Yeah, Butler is not a lot better than Wade right now, and Wade was arguably better last year.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Whether they would take Wade or not has nothing to do with how they are performing. I also believe Butler would be their best player, it's just not easily as you incorrectly stated. Butler isn't much better than Wade right now. He wouldn't be in the conversation if we were talking history, but the current day Wade is close to Butler.

As far as making the Bulls a better team Butler would. I don't think he makes them much better. The Bulls offense has played better without the ball hogging Butler in it. Other areas, i.e. defense and bench production have suffered.

Coincidentally the Bulls slide can be directly traced to Noah's (a guy you don't like) injury. It also can be traced to the reemergence of Moore (guy you like) and larger role played by Gibson (also a guy you like).

You clamored for both of these guys to play more and they have and now the Bulls are losing like hell. It's all about Hoiberg though. Keep deluding yourself with that one.

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http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... m:per_game

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... m:per_game

The only edge Wade has is assists, and it is marginal.

And those are raw statistics, they don't even begin to tell the story about defense.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I don't care about how the Bulls offense plays.

I care about how the Bulls play.

The Bulls' record is connected to Butler being out. Taj and Moore can give you valuable minutes. No one is blaming these losses on those two.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I said last year, not the two years combined. But stats dont tell the entire story, especially when the offensive stats are that similar. Butler isn't a lot better than Wade right now. Wade is still good.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I checked last year, same story.

Wade has the same assist lead, and a few tenths of a PPG.

And we for sure aren't talking about last year in this thread. We're talking about this year's Bulls team, and the reasons behind their disappointment.

The same topic for months.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

1.5 ppg more, higher FG%, higher apg, identical PER. Like I said though, stats only get you so far. Butler is better now, might have been better last year, but it's close. They do different things well. I think Wade is still as good or better than Butler offensively despite having slightly worse stats. Butler is definitely better defensively. Either way, I'm just saying it's closer than you suggested.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

LTG I assume you think coach of the year debates are pointless since coaches don't matter. Do you believe that pro sports teams should eliminate the position of head coach/manager?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Valuable Minutes? They are starting and playing big minutes now. If they are starting then that's a problem. Why look at those two when Hoiberg makes a much more inviting and popular target?

I noticed that you failed to address the Popovich stuff?

You also failed to address the part regarding last night also. An argument can be made that Miami was better at all 5 positions last night yet its not about personnel. ITs one thing to bash Hoiberg, but its quite another to let bias override every thing.

I'm not a Thibs fan, but that is mostly related to what I saw last year. The team underachieved. They lost to a Cleveland team that was undermanned. Lebron James also performed badly during that series. They absolutely laid down during that series and yet people are claiming that Thibs would take a bunch of D-Leaguers to heights that he couldn't take all star level NBA players to just last season.


Also. I think it is now safe to say that it may time to retire the "Dougie McSuckets" thread. The guy has shown that he is a legit NBA player. Coincidentally it occurred without the expert tutelage of Thibs and the ball stopping ways of Butler anywhere in sight.

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No coaching absolutely matters. Remember I bashed Thibs last year. I think talent matter more though. Its not really close in my opinion. Pop won 17 games his first year and 56 his second year. Did he become a better coach or did he have better players?

Its simple. Great coaches become extremely pedestrian without talent. Good coaches become terrible without talent. Hell Del Negro won 56 games with the Clippers. Did he become a better coach? or was it better players? Pat Riley the great warrior and philosopher, walked away from the Heat once he realized that Magic Kareem, or Pat Ewing wasn't walking through that door. Its why Phil Jackson has always attempted to coach teams with superior talent.

Coaching matters. I'm not ready to bash Hoiberg because he can't win with Etwaun Moore and Taj Gibson in his starting lineup. The Bulls also lost the two games that Taj started against Cleveland also. I'm not going to say that the guy stinks because he can't win with Aaron Brooks. Brooks stinks and will most assuredly be out of the NBA next year or at the end of someone's bench. He is done. Same goes for Dunleavy. I'm giving him a pass because of injury but he is 35 years old and last we saw of him he was being torched by J.R. Smith and Shumpert during the playoffs last season. Hoiberg is bad because he can't get anything out of Tony Snell or Holiday? These are fringe NBA players.

We have allowed the legend of Thibs to grow to levels that are quite mythical. He got to 1 conf. final and semi final rounds, yet he is revered as if he is a multi time NBA champion. The East was really not good during those years either. It was Miami, The Bulls, and a bunch of nothing to be honest. That was illustrated by the mirage that was the Indiana Pacers.

Before we make the argument that those Bulls teams were good solely based upon Thibs lets at least for once explore other possibilities. Noah and Deng were all stars and Boozer was a much better player than he ever got credit for being. The Bulls had some talent during those seasons even minus Rose.

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This season isn't worth three pages, let alone last night's game.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Have you ever posted in the DiCaro thread? If so then it may be safe to render your last statement to be rather blasphemous.

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I would suggest that it might be in your best interests to read the definition portion on your Word of the Day calendar ... you can begin with whatever day listed the word 'blasphemous' ... or perhaps you are under the impression that Jerry Reinsdorf is some sort of inviolable deity.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

The posters to this thread are. You are a long time message board scribe, a witty man to boot I'm surprised you missed that one. When it comes to Bulls posting these are the go to guys because they don't mind engaging obviously. The Hoiberg stuff is going to go on ad infinitum which is fine with me . I'm writing this season off. It was done for me once Noah went out. The Bulls had a shot if their full roster was intact, but they are cooked. I'm willing to give Hoiberg a pass until he has an opportunity to coach better players.

This hopefully compensates for all of the game threads in which St. Louis Bull man or fan is the only one posting.

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I respect your opinion. But I disagree. I appreciate you supporting your opinion with salient ideas and relevant statistics.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Didn't need statistics to support something that is well known by people that watch the games. All the incorporation of statistics did was make an already feeble argument appear worse.

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What?

Jimmy Butler > Dwyane Wade. This is widely accepted.

The margin of greatness is being debated. And I still disagree with FavreFan. He is just a poster that can discuss NBA better than most.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Don't attempt to move the goal post, if I be allowed to mix my metaphors. You said that Butler would be easily the best player on the team. Statistics in support of the usually reliable eyetest, proved you wrong and then you decided to transition to the more reliable argument that "no GM would take Wade over Butler". This is why your heretofore unchallenged reputation as a "credible" poster needs to be called in question.

It's obvious that a Dwayne Wade playing at a high level is not easily bested by Butler. Statistics bear it out don't they?

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