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Tall Midget
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:17 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
long time guy wrote:

What odds would you place on Bernie Sanders believing that Honduras is a South American country?


Sanders' position on Latin America isn't perfect, but it's much better than Hillary Clinton's record of fomenting instability across the globe:

Quote:
When asked about his past support for Latin American leaders Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua and Fidel Castro in Cuba, and to explain "the difference between the socialism that you profess and the socialism in Nicaragua, Cuba, and Venezuela," Sanders declared:

What that was about was saying that the United States was wrong to try to invade Cuba, that the United States was wrong trying to support people to overthrow the Nicaraguan government, that the United States was wrong trying to overthrow in 1954, the government -- democratically elected government of Guatemala.

Throughout the history of our relationship with Latin America we've operated under the so-called Monroe Doctrine, and that said the United States had the right do anything that they wanted to do in Latin America. So I actually went to Nicaragua and I very shortly opposed the Reagan administration's efforts to overthrow that government. And I strongly opposed earlier Henry Kissinger and the -- to overthrow the government of Salvador Allende in Chile.

I think the United States should be working with governments around the world, not get involved in regime change. And all of these actions, by the way, in Latin America, brought forth a lot of very strong anti-American sentiments.

[...] The key issue here was whether the United States should go around overthrowing small Latin American countries.



Secretary of State doesn't set foreign policy unless that Secretary of State is Henry Kissinger or apparently Hillary Clinton.


You can't be serious. Clinton has cultivated a neoconservative militarist foreign policy ideology since the early 2000s--that's why she has curried favor with the Hawks. And her equivocations on Honduras are simply an embarrassment.

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long time guy
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:23 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
long time guy wrote:

What odds would you place on Bernie Sanders believing that Honduras is a South American country?


Sanders' position on Latin America isn't perfect, but it's much better than Hillary Clinton's record of fomenting instability across the globe:

Quote:
When asked about his past support for Latin American leaders Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua and Fidel Castro in Cuba, and to explain "the difference between the socialism that you profess and the socialism in Nicaragua, Cuba, and Venezuela," Sanders declared:

What that was about was saying that the United States was wrong to try to invade Cuba, that the United States was wrong trying to support people to overthrow the Nicaraguan government, that the United States was wrong trying to overthrow in 1954, the government -- democratically elected government of Guatemala.

Throughout the history of our relationship with Latin America we've operated under the so-called Monroe Doctrine, and that said the United States had the right do anything that they wanted to do in Latin America. So I actually went to Nicaragua and I very shortly opposed the Reagan administration's efforts to overthrow that government. And I strongly opposed earlier Henry Kissinger and the -- to overthrow the government of Salvador Allende in Chile.

I think the United States should be working with governments around the world, not get involved in regime change. And all of these actions, by the way, in Latin America, brought forth a lot of very strong anti-American sentiments.

[...] The key issue here was whether the United States should go around overthrowing small Latin American countries.



Secretary of State doesn't set foreign policy unless that Secretary of State is Henry Kissinger or apparently Hillary Clinton.


You can't be serious. Clinton has cultivated a neoconservative militarist foreign policy ideology since the early 2000s--that's why she has curried favor with the Hawks. And her equivocations on Honduras are simply an embarrassment.



Policy and philosophy are two separate things. The President typically sets policy. Secretary of State carries out the philosophy of the President. And yes I am serious about that.

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Tall Midget
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:31 pm 
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long time guy wrote:

Policy and philosophy are two separate things. The President typically sets policy. Secretary of State carries out the philosophy of the President. And yes I am serious about that.


I'm not really sure what you are trying to argue here. But Clinton has been a disaster both in the Senate and as Secretary of State from a foreign policy perspective.

She certainly wasn't coerced into defending the coup, as her interview with the Daily News makes perfectly clear.

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Regular Reader
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:39 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
You can't be serious. Clinton has cultivated a neoconservative militarist foreign policy ideology since the early 2000s--that's why she has curried favor with the Hawks. And her equivocations on Honduras are simply an embarrassment.


I think "neocon" ideology may be a bit strong. "Center/leaning right" is how I'd craft :wink: it. But I think it's telling that the only American president of the last 65 years that doesn't own that same tag is Jimmy Carter, an Annapolis graduate. How'd that work out for the peacenik that tried almost in vain to deliver this country out of the malaise of Vietnam, Watergate, the birth of a real rival superpower(OPEC) and almost a decade of no real economic planning (on the federal and corporate levels).

But I won't defend her against the basic charge you make. As you sit on an extreme (for an American) position for anti-interventionism that I tend to agree more with, I won't try to argue unless I want to flex my hypocritical muscles. But I will toss out that her position on Honduras was the company(Obama) line, and virtually no one in this country holds him in contempt for it.

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City of Fools
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:50 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
You can't be serious. Clinton has cultivated a neoconservative militarist foreign policy ideology since the early 2000s--that's why she has curried favor with the Hawks. And her equivocations on Honduras are simply an embarrassment.


I think "neocon" ideology may be a bit strong. "Center/leaning right" is how I'd craft :wink: it. But I think it's telling that the only American president of the last 65 years that doesn't own that same tag is Jimmy Carter, an Annapolis graduate. How'd that work out for the peacenik that tried almost in vain to deliver this country out of the malaise of Vietnam, Watergate, the birth of a real rival superpower(OPEC) and almost a decade of no real economic planning (on the federal and corporate levels).

But I won't defend her against the basic charge you make. As you sit on an extreme (for an American) position for anti-interventionism that I tend to agree more with, I won't try to argue unless I want to flex my hypocritical muscles. But I will toss out that her position on Honduras was the company(Obama) line, and virtually no one in this country holds him in contempt for it.

you either take the blame for your actions as secretary of state, or say Obama did it. And if it's the latter, don't list being secretary of state as part of your experience factor.

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Tall Midget
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:59 pm 
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City of Fools wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
You can't be serious. Clinton has cultivated a neoconservative militarist foreign policy ideology since the early 2000s--that's why she has curried favor with the Hawks. And her equivocations on Honduras are simply an embarrassment.


I think "neocon" ideology may be a bit strong. "Center/leaning right" is how I'd craft :wink: it. But I think it's telling that the only American president of the last 65 years that doesn't own that same tag is Jimmy Carter, an Annapolis graduate. How'd that work out for the peacenik that tried almost in vain to deliver this country out of the malaise of Vietnam, Watergate, the birth of a real rival superpower(OPEC) and almost a decade of no real economic planning (on the federal and corporate levels).

But I won't defend her against the basic charge you make. As you sit on an extreme (for an American) position for anti-interventionism that I tend to agree more with, I won't try to argue unless I want to flex my hypocritical muscles. But I will toss out that her position on Honduras was the company(Obama) line, and virtually no one in this country holds him in contempt for it.

you either take the blame for your actions as secretary of state, or say Obama did it. And if it's the latter, don't list being secretary of state as part of your experience factor.


Precisely. Was she a drone or the Queen Bee? If the former, then her "qualifications" are a mirage. If the latter, then she is a force for global chaos.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:03 pm 
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Were on page 3 of a thread with lots of LTG posts and he has nailed every quote without messing up or posting nothing.


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Regular Reader
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:05 pm 
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City of Fools wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
You can't be serious. Clinton has cultivated a neoconservative militarist foreign policy ideology since the early 2000s--that's why she has curried favor with the Hawks. And her equivocations on Honduras are simply an embarrassment.


I think "neocon" ideology may be a bit strong. "Center/leaning right" is how I'd craft :wink: it. But I think it's telling that the only American president of the last 65 years that doesn't own that same tag is Jimmy Carter, an Annapolis graduate. How'd that work out for the peacenik that tried almost in vain to deliver this country out of the malaise of Vietnam, Watergate, the birth of a real rival superpower(OPEC) and almost a decade of no real economic planning (on the federal and corporate levels).

But I won't defend her against the basic charge you make. As you sit on an extreme (for an American) position for anti-interventionism that I tend to agree more with, I won't try to argue unless I want to flex my hypocritical muscles. But I will toss out that her position on Honduras was the company(Obama) line, and virtually no one in this country holds him in contempt for it.

you either take the blame for your actions as secretary of state, or say Obama did it. And if it's the latter, don't list being secretary of state as part of your experience factor.


For fairness' sake, please establish/define the rest of your purity test.

The only POTUS' we've had in this country that sound like they could pass [i]what I think it might be[/i] were a one termer (Carter) & a two termer who still hasn't been able to attempt to enact his agenda because of his inability to play Washington (& racial) politics that reached a new low the very day he was inaugurated. And then he lost the old glow of his once perceived virtue by the very costs of actually attempting to do his job under the "new" rules.

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Regular Reader
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:08 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Precisely. Was she a drone or the Queen Bee? If the former, then her "qualifications" are a mirage. If the latter, then she is a force for global chaos.


I know this is the wrong thread, but exactly what in his history implies that Sanders (or Jill Stein) are even bees? Neither have ever gotten the nectar, made the honey, stored the honey or seem to know what to do with the honey other than to spread on their seven grain organic toast at breakfast.

:)

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long time guy
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:02 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
long time guy wrote:

What odds would you place on Bernie Sanders believing that Honduras is a South American country?


Sanders' position on Latin America isn't perfect, but it's much better than Hillary Clinton's record of fomenting instability across the globe:

Quote:
When asked about his past support for Latin American leaders Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua and Fidel Castro in Cuba, and to explain "the difference between the socialism that you profess and the socialism in Nicaragua, Cuba, and Venezuela," Sanders declared:

What that was about was saying that the United States was wrong to try to invade Cuba, that the United States was wrong trying to support people to overthrow the Nicaraguan government, that the United States was wrong trying to overthrow in 1954, the government -- democratically elected government of Guatemala.

Throughout the history of our relationship with Latin America we've operated under the so-called Monroe Doctrine, and that said the United States had the right do anything that they wanted to do in Latin America. So I actually went to Nicaragua and I very shortly opposed the Reagan administration's efforts to overthrow that government. And I strongly opposed earlier Henry Kissinger and the -- to overthrow the government of Salvador Allende in Chile.

I think the United States should be working with governments around the world, not get involved in regime change. And all of these actions, by the way, in Latin America, brought forth a lot of very strong anti-American sentiments.

[...] The key issue here was whether the United States should go around overthrowing small Latin American countries.



Secretary of State doesn't set foreign policy unless that Secretary of State is Henry Kissinger or apparently Hillary Clinton.


You can't be serious. Clinton has cultivated a neoconservative militarist foreign policy ideology since the early 2000s--that's why she has curried favor with the Hawks. And her equivocations on Honduras are simply an embarrassment.



She definitely isn't a neo-con either. Its a little extreme to lump her in with that crowd. Nor is she a pacifist/isolationalist either. She is a tad hawkish on foreign policy but i don't think she is going to go around advocating the overthrow of govts. There weren't any wars during Clinton's presidency. There were only limited military engagements.

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:54 pm 
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Hillary has disclosed more about her financed than anyone. All of her tax returns for the last 25 years are online. Bernie still haven't released his. It's unfortunate.

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veganfan21
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:07 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Hillary has disclosed more about her financed than anyone. All of her tax returns for the last 25 years are online. Bernie still haven't released his. It's unfortunate.


Even more unfortunate is that the likes of Romney, Clinton, and Bush have to share presidential stages with undesirables like Sanders. There should be a minimum threshold for the amount of personal wealth one must possess before being eligible to run for president. That ought to make sure certain people know their proper place in life.

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:21 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Nas wrote:
Hillary has disclosed more about her financed than anyone. All of her tax returns for the last 25 years are online. Bernie still haven't released his. It's unfortunate.


Even more unfortunate is that the likes of Romney, Clinton, and Bush have to share presidential stages with undesirables like Sanders. There should be a minimum threshold for the amount of personal wealth one must possess before being eligible to run for president. That ought to make sure certain people know their proper place in life.


If he has nothing to hide he should share his tax returns.

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WaitingforRuffcorn
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:39 pm 
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Ha! From a Clinton supporter.

Clinton Foundation financial trickery:http://nypost.com/2015/04/26/charity-watchdog-clinton-foundation-a-slush-fund/

Hilary paid, while Bernie stands with workers: http://www.salon.com/2016/04/13/hillary ... g_workers/

Stick with the "she gets thinks done" narrative. It's not great, but it's better than comparing the candidates financial ethics.

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:48 pm 
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Why hasn't he released his tax returns? What's on them? You know who else hasn't released his tax returns? Donald Trump. Both of the New York charlatans. #Facts

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WaitingforRuffcorn
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:56 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Why hasn't he released his tax returns? What's on them? You know who else hasn't released his tax returns? Donald Trump. Both of the New York charlatans. #Facts


Comparing Bernie Sanders to Donald Trump is an embarrassment. How about he releases his taxes when she release her Goldman speeches and Clinton Foundation financials. #fraud since you are into hashtags. When Bernie was standing with workers Hilary was taking Verizon bribes. She is a corporate owned criminal.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/13/ ... ok-moment/

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:09 pm 
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That's not really leadership. What is he hiding? Hillary has released 25 years and Mr Perfect can't release his.

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WaitingforRuffcorn
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:21 pm 
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Nas wrote:
That's not really leadership. What is he hiding? Hillary has released 25 years and Mr Perfect can't release his.


Hilary Clinton's wealth includes the Clinton Foundation, which is hardly open in it's dealings. And Sanders has released most of his tax information. You are simply being absurd in your Hilary love. It's like a religion for you. She has clearly made millions from all sorts of shady deals, but you are waiting from something from Sander's returns to confirm your faith. We are past facts at this point.

Hilary can make "colored people" jokes in public. Fine.

Support the Iraq war, bombing Libya and overthrowing governments in Central America. No worries.

She can openly become a multi-millionaire by taking bribes to give speeches that she refuses to release. Well, Sanders must have something wrong, because you have made up your mind.

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veganfan21
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:30 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Nas wrote:
That's not really leadership. What is he hiding? Hillary has released 25 years and Mr Perfect can't release his.


Hilary Clinton's wealth includes the Clinton Foundation, which is hardly open in it's dealings. And Sanders has released most of his tax information. You are simply being absurd in your Hilary love. It's like a religion for you. She has clearly made millions from all sorts of shady deals, but you are waiting from something from Sander's returns to confirm your faith. We are past facts at this point.

Hilary can make "colored people" jokes in public. Fine.

Support the Iraq war, bombing Libya and overthrowing governments in Central America. No worries.

She can openly become a multi-millionaire by taking bribes to give speeches that she refuses to release. Well, Sanders must have something wrong, because you have made up your mind.


You're wasting your time here. LTG and Nas don't believe there are problems with big money in politics or neoliberal economic policies that fuel income inequality. #fact

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WaitingforRuffcorn
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:41 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Nas wrote:
That's not really leadership. What is he hiding? Hillary has released 25 years and Mr Perfect can't release his.


Hilary Clinton's wealth includes the Clinton Foundation, which is hardly open in it's dealings. And Sanders has released most of his tax information. You are simply being absurd in your Hilary love. It's like a religion for you. She has clearly made millions from all sorts of shady deals, but you are waiting from something from Sander's returns to confirm your faith. We are past facts at this point.

Hilary can make "colored people" jokes in public. Fine.

Support the Iraq war, bombing Libya and overthrowing governments in Central America. No worries.

She can openly become a multi-millionaire by taking bribes to give speeches that she refuses to release. Well, Sanders must have something wrong, because you have made up your mind.


You're wasting your time here. LTG and Nas don't believe there are problems with big money in politics or neoliberal economic policies that fuel income inequality. #fact


It's what I said. Hilary could open camps, and they would point to a 73 Sander's speech that was too critical on Nixon. They love the Oligarchy. See you on CoC.

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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:02 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Why hasn't he released his tax returns? What's on them? You know who else hasn't released his tax returns? Donald Trump. Both of the New York charlatans. #Facts


Either you're serious here and are obviously ridiculous, or you're trolling and trying to be funny but are failing badly. I'm curious to know which it is.

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:23 pm 
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Bernie Sanders supporters clearly need mirrors. Hillary's voters aren't delusional. Hillary is the only candidate to release her full tax returns. The past 25 years are online for everyone to see. #Transparency

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conns7901
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:38 pm 
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Nas has done the Hillary troll well.

One day Hillary will pay other women the same as men.

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Tall Midget
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:50 am 
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long time guy wrote:

She definitely isn't a neo-con either. Its a little extreme to lump her in with that crowd. Nor is she a pacifist/isolationalist either. She is a tad hawkish on foreign policy but i don't think she is going to go around advocating the overthrow of govts. There weren't any wars during Clinton's presidency. There were only limited military engagements.


This statement is puzzling. Clinton supported regime change in Iraq and Libya--and was an accomplice in the unconstitutional military coup in Honduras. Her record on foreign policy is abysmal, mirroring that of many neocons.

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City of Fools
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:52 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Nas wrote:
That's not really leadership. What is he hiding? Hillary has released 25 years and Mr Perfect can't release his.


Hilary Clinton's wealth includes the Clinton Foundation, which is hardly open in it's dealings. And Sanders has released most of his tax information. You are simply being absurd in your Hilary love. It's like a religion for you. She has clearly made millions from all sorts of shady deals, but you are waiting from something from Sander's returns to confirm your faith. We are past facts at this point.

Hilary can make "colored people" jokes in public. Fine.

Support the Iraq war, bombing Libya and overthrowing governments in Central America. No worries.

She can openly become a multi-millionaire by taking bribes to give speeches that she refuses to release. Well, Sanders must have something wrong, because you have made up your mind.

how many times do we have to say this? Nas is trolling. He doesn't like Hillary, it's all a giant troll.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:56 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
overthrowing governments in Central America.
Maybe not the best thing to mention as a Sanders supporter.

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 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:01 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
Why hasn't he released his tax returns? What's on them? You know who else hasn't released his tax returns? Donald Trump. Both of the New York charlatans. #Facts


Either you're serious here and are obviously ridiculous, or you're trolling and trying to be funny but are failing badly. I'm curious to know which it is.
Why hasn't he released his tax returns though?

I mean, everyone goes nuts on others for doing it/not doing it. Shouldn't Bernie get the same treatment?

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long time guy
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:40 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
long time guy wrote:

She definitely isn't a neo-con either. Its a little extreme to lump her in with that crowd. Nor is she a pacifist/isolationalist either. She is a tad hawkish on foreign policy but i don't think she is going to go around advocating the overthrow of govts. There weren't any wars during Clinton's presidency. There were only limited military engagements.


This statement is puzzling. Clinton supported regime change in Iraq and Libya--and was an accomplice in the unconstitutional military coup in Honduras. Her record on foreign policy is abysmal, mirroring that of many neocons.



Not to me it isn't. Hillary Clinton's foreign policy record is that of her husband's as far as I'm concerned. It's not that of Bush's or Obama's for that matter. She took a stand in Iraq that a vast majority of other Senators took, both Republican and Democrat. Her vote was partly political and partly based upon the evidence. Her husband had a chance to overthrow Hussein and didnt. I'm assuming that she agreed moreso with him and less so with Bush.

Her job as Secretary of State was to support the President. Libya is Obama's and not Hillary's call. I'm assuming that you like Obama because you attach Libya to Hillary and not him, though he was, after all the President in charge at the time it occurred. Hillary Clinton doesn't set policy, Obama does.

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Tall Midget
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:50 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
long time guy wrote:

She definitely isn't a neo-con either. Its a little extreme to lump her in with that crowd. Nor is she a pacifist/isolationalist either. She is a tad hawkish on foreign policy but i don't think she is going to go around advocating the overthrow of govts. There weren't any wars during Clinton's presidency. There were only limited military engagements.


This statement is puzzling. Clinton supported regime change in Iraq and Libya--and was an accomplice in the unconstitutional military coup in Honduras. Her record on foreign policy is abysmal, mirroring that of many neocons.



Not to me it isn't. Hillary Clinton's foreign policy record is that of her husband's as far as I'm concerned. It's not that of Bush's or Obama's for that matter. She took a stand in Iraq that a vast majority of other Senators took, both Republican and Democrat. Her vote was partly political and partly based upon the evidence. Her husband had a chance to overthrow Hussein and didnt. I'm assuming that she agreed moreso with him and less so with Bush.

Her job as Secretary of State was to support the President. Libya is Obama's and not Hillary's call. I'm assuming that you like Obama because you attach Libya to Hillary and not him, though he was, after all the President in charge at the time it occurred. Hillary Clinton doesn't set policy, Obama does.


The circuitous nature of your logic is impressive. Clinton voted for regime change in Iraq. American military intervention there has proven disastrous.

She also advocated for regime change in Libya, another disastrous decision. The fact that she hasn't distanced herself from this policy since leaving her position as Secretary of State confirms that she wasn't "just following orders" as you seem to believe.

As far as Honduras goes, Obama gave her authority to formulate policy in response to the military coup. Despite the fact that our ambassador there and many of her aides pressured her to reject the coup's legitimacy, she helped legitimate it.

Hillary Clinton's foreign-policy record is abysmal.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: Hillary Clinton
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:56 am 
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City of Fools wrote:
Nas is trolling. He doesn't like Hillary, it's all a giant troll.

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