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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:50 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
I don't know why seeing a politician's tax returns is even important. If he is doing something illegal, then that is for the IRS to deal with. Does it really matter if he makes nothing or $10,0000,000 per year? He/she is either a qualified candidate with good ideas and the appearance of competence or he/she is one of the choices we have in 2016. :wink:
For the same reason how and why Hillary went from penniless to rich is important.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:50 pm 
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I guess if you're worried about hypocrisy, but I expect such from politicians. Not to be some big Bernie defender here, but his concerns about income inequality are completely justified by objective measures like the gini coefficient.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:55 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
I guess if you're worried about hypocrisy, but I expect such from politicians. Not to be some big Bernie defender here, but his concerns about income inequality are completely justified by objective measures like the gini coefficient.


A lot of his words are perfectly fine to me. I just think he's full of shit and a conman.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:57 pm 
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Nas wrote:
denisdman wrote:
I guess if you're worried about hypocrisy, but I expect such from politicians. Not to be some big Bernie defender here, but his concerns about income inequality are completely justified by objective measures like the gini coefficient.


A lot of his words are perfectly fine to me. I just think he's full of shit and a conman.


And your second sentence is probably descriptive of many/most politicians. His tax returns aren't going to change any of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:03 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
Nas wrote:
denisdman wrote:
I guess if you're worried about hypocrisy, but I expect such from politicians. Not to be some big Bernie defender here, but his concerns about income inequality are completely justified by objective measures like the gini coefficient.


A lot of his words are perfectly fine to me. I just think he's full of shit and a conman.


And your second sentence is probably descriptive of many/most politicians. His tax returns aren't going to change any of that.


True. Unfortunately many people don't believe Bernie or Trump are. If you combined their supporters you are looking at half the country.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:09 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
long time guy wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Same stump speech over and over again.


I will defer to your expertise on redundancy.


No you won't. You will simply adhere to your rather fallacious form of argument. I haven't really said anything about Sanders and his stump speeches. Rather than address the validity of the argument, you choose to resort to the tried and true method of dissing me. If anything is redundant, that'd be it. You can never quite wrong as long as you stick to that playbook, can you?


You are only correct in that I try not to engage you. If I may be direct, I find your thoughts on most things to be redundant, cherry-picked, and often irrelevant. You speak as an authority on any topic you discuss, and you are more self-congratulatory over meaningless predictions than anyone here.

A good example of this would be your insistence on bringing up Hillary's lead in overall votes when no one here is even arguing that. On the contrary, pretty much all Sanders defenders have conceded that he lost... and yet you repeatedly pound your chest about how she is kicking his ass and incinuating that all Sanders supporters are out of touch with reality.

Keep in mind that I engage both Nas, who I'm not even sure is serious and Rick, who is an irritant but is at least usually interesting or varied in his approach. That's because the point here is to engage in conversation and, frequently, argue very intensely over topics. Instead, you choose to write disjointed novels (irony with this post, I know) that rarely address anyone else's opinion and instead talk as though you are some sort of enlightened soul sent to set us plebes straight.

So, no, I won't be arguing with you in your weird, long-form debates (again, irony) when you show no interest in even having a conversation or showing the least bit of humility or self-awareness.



It is patently dishonest to suggest that people here have been posting about how Hillary has been kicking Bernies ass. They haven't, aside from three people. Instead there have been posts about momentum, emails, FBI investigations, personalities, dishonesty and the like. In addition is the fact you seem to have a problem because people decided to point out the flaws in Sanders. Also for a person that doesn't like arguing with me you sure do seem to like arguing with me.

It's invariably personal. Rather than address points, you choose to focus on me. The points that I made regarding the super delegate thing was neither redundant nor irrelevant yet you choose as is your pattern to ignore it for the truly redundant and irrelevant attack on me.

I really don't see myself as an authority on anything to be exact. I'm simply a guy that posts on a message board, as are you. I have done a little reading in my life and I don't apologize for that. I also don't view myself as some sort of board spokesman, or the guy to issue board referendums, nor the guy who assesses the pulse of the board. I simply posts here and if I have a disagreement I state it.

What I never do is pile on as you and others do and attempt to bully guys that I disagree with. My opinions are rightly or wrongly my opinions. I don't base my opinions on the guy that's posting. Can you and the others that constantly engage in piling on say that?

Each and everything that you post about me is primarily about me and not about what I posted. It's not even remotely annoying at this point. The interesting thing is that you complain about redundancy. How redundant is that?

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Last edited by long time guy on Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:14 pm 
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LTG, your apparent sincerity is refreshing. The length of your posts is perpetually frustrating.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:17 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
LTG, your apparent sincerity is refreshing. The length of your posts is perpetually frustrating.



To be honest, I don't really write long posts at this stage. I admittedly used to. They have become much shorter. Sometimes I attempt to address all of a person's points and it gets lengthy. They have become succinct lately.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:39 pm 
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And for the record, I voted for Bernie so this isn't a shot at him. I just think it's funny.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:40 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
You are only correct in that I try not to engage you. If I may be direct, I find your thoughts on most things to be redundant, cherry-picked, and often irrelevant. You speak as an authority on any topic you discuss, and you are more self-congratulatory over meaningless predictions than anyone here.

A good example of this would be your insistence on bringing up Hillary's lead in overall votes when no one here is even arguing that. On the contrary, pretty much all Sanders defenders have conceded that he lost... and yet you repeatedly pound your chest about how she is kicking his ass and incinuating that all Sanders supporters are out of touch with reality.

Keep in mind that I engage both Nas, who I'm not even sure is serious and Rick, who is an irritant but is at least usually interesting or varied in his approach. That's because the point here is to engage in conversation and, frequently, argue very intensely over topics. Instead, you choose to write disjointed novels (irony with this post, I know) that rarely address anyone else's opinion and instead talk as though you are some sort of enlightened soul sent to set us plebes straight.

So, no, I won't be arguing with you in your weird, long-form debates (again, irony) when you show no interest in even having a conversation or showing the least bit of humility or self-awareness.


It is patently dishonest to suggest that people here have been posting about how Hillary has been kicking Bernies ass. They haven't, aside from three people. Instead there have been posts about momentum, emails, FBI investigations, personalities, dishonesty and the like. In addition is the fact you seem to have a problem because people decided to point out the flaws in Sanders. Also for a person that doesn't like arguing with me you sure do seem to like arguing with me.

It's invariably personal. Rather than address points, you choose to focus on me. The points that I made regarding the super delegate thing was neither redundant nor irrelevant yet you choose as is your pattern to ignore it for the truly redundant and irrelevant attack on me.

I really don't see myself as an authority on anything to be exact. I'm simply a guy that posts on a message board, as are you. I have done a little reading in my life and I don't apologize for that. I also don't view myself as some sort of board spokesman, or the guy to issue board referendums, nor the guy who assesses the pulse of the board. I simply posts here and if I have a disagreement I state it.

What I never do is pile on as you and others do and attempt to bully guys that I disagree with. My opinions are rightly or wrongly my opinions. I don't base my opinions on the guy that's posting. Can you and the others that constantly engage in piling on say that?

Each and everything that you post about me is primarily about me and not about what I posted. It's not even remotely annoying at this point. The interesting thing is that you complain about redundancy. How redundant is that?


Thus proving his point.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:45 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
You are only correct in that I try not to engage you. If I may be direct, I find your thoughts on most things to be redundant, cherry-picked, and often irrelevant. You speak as an authority on any topic you discuss, and you are more self-congratulatory over meaningless predictions than anyone here.

A good example of this would be your insistence on bringing up Hillary's lead in overall votes when no one here is even arguing that. On the contrary, pretty much all Sanders defenders have conceded that he lost... and yet you repeatedly pound your chest about how she is kicking his ass and incinuating that all Sanders supporters are out of touch with reality.

Keep in mind that I engage both Nas, who I'm not even sure is serious and Rick, who is an irritant but is at least usually interesting or varied in his approach. That's because the point here is to engage in conversation and, frequently, argue very intensely over topics. Instead, you choose to write disjointed novels (irony with this post, I know) that rarely address anyone else's opinion and instead talk as though you are some sort of enlightened soul sent to set us plebes straight.

So, no, I won't be arguing with you in your weird, long-form debates (again, irony) when you show no interest in even having a conversation or showing the least bit of humility or self-awareness.


It is patently dishonest to suggest that people here have been posting about how Hillary has been kicking Bernies ass. They haven't, aside from three people. Instead there have been posts about momentum, emails, FBI investigations, personalities, dishonesty and the like. In addition is the fact you seem to have a problem because people decided to point out the flaws in Sanders. Also for a person that doesn't like arguing with me you sure do seem to like arguing with me.

It's invariably personal. Rather than address points, you choose to focus on me. The points that I made regarding the super delegate thing was neither redundant nor irrelevant yet you choose as is your pattern to ignore it for the truly redundant and irrelevant attack on me.

I really don't see myself as an authority on anything to be exact. I'm simply a guy that posts on a message board, as are you. I have done a little reading in my life and I don't apologize for that. I also don't view myself as some sort of board spokesman, or the guy to issue board referendums, nor the guy who assesses the pulse of the board. I simply posts here and if I have a disagreement I state it.

What I never do is pile on as you and others do and attempt to bully guys that I disagree with. My opinions are rightly or wrongly my opinions. I don't base my opinions on the guy that's posting. Can you and the others that constantly engage in piling on say that?

Each and everything that you post about me is primarily about me and not about what I posted. It's not even remotely annoying at this point. The interesting thing is that you complain about redundancy. How redundant is that?


Thus proving his point.


I don't know what point that is nor do I particularly care for that matter.

What I will say is this. It is obvious that there are a certain group of guys that respond to posts that I make solely for the purpose of disproving things that I post. When that tactic doesn't work or isn't particularly viable, they resort to personal attacks against me. Any idiot can see that.

Among this group are several guys that have been banned from this site for exhibiting this same sort of behavior previously. Some have been banned on several occasions for exhibiting this sort of behavior. That is why I find it funny that they are now among the group that attempts to lecture and frankly condescend to me about the proper way to conduct message board conversations.

I don't know which category you fall under, nor do i care for that matter. I don't expect you or anyone that falls under the critical class to ever go against the grain anyway. Consistency is, after all the key. However yours and others opinions would have much more credibility if you were honest about the nature of the criticism.

It is obviously about the poster and not the post. My ability to respond to posts have never been based upon the person that is posting. Hopefully this will be the last time that I address this particular topic. Probably won't be though.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:48 pm 
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It's unfortunate that people have to resort to personal attacks when they've been burned by Bernie.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:06 pm 
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Nas wrote:
It's unfortunate that people have to resort to personal attacks when they've been burned by Bernie.


It's not personal. It's just aimless.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:36 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
You are only correct in that I try not to engage you. If I may be direct, I find your thoughts on most things to be redundant, cherry-picked, and often irrelevant. You speak as an authority on any topic you discuss, and you are more self-congratulatory over meaningless predictions than anyone here.

A good example of this would be your insistence on bringing up Hillary's lead in overall votes when no one here is even arguing that. On the contrary, pretty much all Sanders defenders have conceded that he lost... and yet you repeatedly pound your chest about how she is kicking his ass and incinuating that all Sanders supporters are out of touch with reality.

Keep in mind that I engage both Nas, who I'm not even sure is serious and Rick, who is an irritant but is at least usually interesting or varied in his approach. That's because the point here is to engage in conversation and, frequently, argue very intensely over topics. Instead, you choose to write disjointed novels (irony with this post, I know) that rarely address anyone else's opinion and instead talk as though you are some sort of enlightened soul sent to set us plebes straight.

So, no, I won't be arguing with you in your weird, long-form debates (again, irony) when you show no interest in even having a conversation or showing the least bit of humility or self-awareness.


It is patently dishonest to suggest that people here have been posting about how Hillary has been kicking Bernies ass. They haven't, aside from three people. Instead there have been posts about momentum, emails, FBI investigations, personalities, dishonesty and the like. In addition is the fact you seem to have a problem because people decided to point out the flaws in Sanders. Also for a person that doesn't like arguing with me you sure do seem to like arguing with me.

It's invariably personal. Rather than address points, you choose to focus on me. The points that I made regarding the super delegate thing was neither redundant nor irrelevant yet you choose as is your pattern to ignore it for the truly redundant and irrelevant attack on me.

I really don't see myself as an authority on anything to be exact. I'm simply a guy that posts on a message board, as are you. I have done a little reading in my life and I don't apologize for that. I also don't view myself as some sort of board spokesman, or the guy to issue board referendums, nor the guy who assesses the pulse of the board. I simply posts here and if I have a disagreement I state it.

What I never do is pile on as you and others do and attempt to bully guys that I disagree with. My opinions are rightly or wrongly my opinions. I don't base my opinions on the guy that's posting. Can you and the others that constantly engage in piling on say that?

Each and everything that you post about me is primarily about me and not about what I posted. It's not even remotely annoying at this point. The interesting thing is that you complain about redundancy. How redundant is that?


Thus proving his point.


I don't know what point that is nor do I particularly care for that matter.

What I will say is this. It is obvious that there are a certain group of guys that respond to posts that I make solely for the purpose of disproving things that I post. When that tactic doesn't work or isn't particularly viable, they resort to personal attacks against me. Any idiot can see that.

Among this group are several guys that have been banned from this site for exhibiting this same sort of behavior previously. Some have been banned on several occasions for exhibiting this sort of behavior. That is why I find it funny that they are now among the group that attempts to lecture and frankly condescend to me about the proper way to conduct message board conversations.

I don't know which category you fall under, nor do i care for that matter. I don't expect you or anyone that falls under the critical class to ever go against the grain anyway. Consistency is, after all the key. However yours and others opinions would have much more credibility if you were honest about the nature of the criticism.

It is obviously about the poster and not the post. My ability to respond to posts have never been based upon the person that is posting. Hopefully this will be the last time that I address this particular topic. Probably won't be though.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:38 pm 
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Leash is LTG

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:45 pm 
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No its not and I stand behind everything I stated. Also since this is the Bernie thread I will jump back on topic. It's ironic that a guy that spent months bashing people for having the audacity to support Hillary is now lecturing me about criticism levied against Bernie.

The primary reason that I choose to dig in is because if I don't bring light to this stuff it won't ever be brought. It's not about me being an "enlightened soul" either. My status as an enlightened soul has more to do with being an outlier than anything. It's obvious that guys don't want to speak truth to message board power. Just never know when they will have to answer for their indiscretion at the next message board outing

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Last edited by long time guy on Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:45 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Leash is LTG


Your troll work gets worse by the second.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:14 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Leash is LTG


Your troll work gets worse by the second.


Great! Leash use of the quote function looks eerily similar to yours.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:26 pm 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Leash is LTG


Your troll work gets worse by the second.


Great! Leash use of the quote function looks eerily similar to yours.


"We now have Nas, in the role previously played by Spmack". These are the Days of Our Lives.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:33 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Leash is LTG


Your troll work gets worse by the second.


Great! Leash use of the quote function looks eerily similar to yours.


"We now have Nas, in the role previously played by Spmack". These are the Days of Our Lives.


Only time will tell who dies, these are the days of our lives

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:26 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
I certainly never said it was a political revolution and I dont even support Sanders.
Bernie said it was a political revolution. :lol:

And you spent a lot of time on Bernie for a guy you don't support, but at this point it doesn't matter. The guy you wanted to lose, and the guy I wanted to lose, lost.


Sanders has been very clear on what he thinks a revolution means: it is when people who do not like the current campaign finance system, who feel corporate tycoons and hedge fund managers violate countless laws with impunity, who believe that loopholes and other factors allow corporations to stash enormous amounts of taxable profits in offshore locations, depriving the country of needed revenue in the process, not to mention forcing the responsibility of replacing lost revenues on everyone else, go out in extraordinary numbers and simply vote anyone complicit in these types of actitivies out of office. No more no less. Obviously there will be disagreements on whether or not these activities are necessarily a "bad thing," and/or if the diagnosis is correct, but that's what the "revolution" for him meant.
And Obama fought against those things how?


I don't get the question. Also, what does Obama have to do with Sanders' campaign? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, the references to Obama seem to be Clinton talking points.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:26 pm 
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Sanders is being accused of committing fraud. He should stop lying to poor people so he can raise money.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:21 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Sanders is being accused of committing fraud. He should stop lying to poor people so he can raise money.


He'd fit nicely within one of those for-profit prisons he so sanctimoniously derides while misleading the masses on the stump.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:41 pm 
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Bernie now has a national platform and following, even if he drops out of the race tomorrow.

I think the next few years are going to show who is right regarding his principles or political expediency. If he becomes an outspoken critic of what some here refer to as center-right Democratic stances and holds Hillary's feet to the fire if she becomes President, then it's clear that his supporters like leash were correct. If he goes quietly into that good night, it's pretty clear Nas is correct. I'm not sure there's a middle ground here.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:16 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Bernie now has a national platform and following, even if he drops out of the race tomorrow.

I think the next few years are going to show who is right regarding his principles or political expediency. If he becomes an outspoken critic of what some here refer to as center-right Democratic stances and holds Hillary's feet to the fire if she becomes President, then it's clear that his supporters like leash were correct. If he goes quietly into that good night, it's pretty clear Nas is correct. I'm not sure there's a middle ground here.


I will be the first to admit that I was wrong. Considering that he hasn't done it in 3 decades in Washington I doubt he will start now.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:23 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Bernie now has a national platform and following, even if he drops out of the race tomorrow.

I think the next few years are going to show who is right regarding his principles or political expediency. If he becomes an outspoken critic of what some here refer to as center-right Democratic stances and holds Hillary's feet to the fire if she becomes President, then it's clear that his supporters like leash were correct. If he goes quietly into that good night, it's pretty clear Nas is correct. I'm not sure there's a middle ground here.


I don't know if we have to wait - the majority of Sanders' positions are virtually unchanged from what he's believed prior to the presidential run, aside from inconsequential things like registering as an independent vs registering as a democrat. Also, and this isn't necessarily directed at you, the absence of policy and/or structural change isn't evidence that Sanders has failed to fight for the things he says are vitally important.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:23 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
I don't get the question. Also, what does Obama have to do with Sanders' campaign? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, the references to Obama seem to be Clinton talking points.
The discussion is about whether Sanders' attacks on Clinton are almost all a similar attack on Obama.

rpb said that Obama and Sanders aren't all that different. That is why I said I don't think you can call it a political revolution if the candidate is basically the same as the previous guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:29 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I don't get the question. Also, what does Obama have to do with Sanders' campaign? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, the references to Obama seem to be Clinton talking points.
The discussion is about whether Sanders' attacks on Clinton are almost all a similar attack on Obama.

rpb said that Obama and Sanders aren't all that different. That is why I said I don't think you can call it a political revolution if the candidate is basically the same as the previous guy.


I haven't read all of this thread so I may have missed the nuances of RPB's argument, but I'm not sure if I'd agree that Sanders and Obama the candidate similar. As I see it, a major difference between Bernie and other politicians running on a similiar platform is Sanders also walks the walk. As far as his campaign goes, for example, you can objectively state that his views on campaign finance are not bullshit. Not sure you can say the same about others, past or present, who also deride the current state of campaign finance. Just one example and I acknowledge there may be counter examples that complicate the point I'm trying to make

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:38 am 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Bernie now has a national platform and following, even if he drops out of the race tomorrow.

I think the next few years are going to show who is right regarding his principles or political expediency. If he becomes an outspoken critic of what some here refer to as center-right Democratic stances and holds Hillary's feet to the fire if she becomes President, then it's clear that his supporters like leash were correct. If he goes quietly into that good night, it's pretty clear Nas is correct. I'm not sure there's a middle ground here.


I don't know if we have to wait - the majority of Sanders' positions are virtually unchanged from what he's believed prior to the presidential run, aside from inconsequential things like registering as an independent vs registering as a democrat. Also, and this isn't necessarily directed at you, the absence of policy and/or structural change isn't evidence that Sanders has failed to fight for the things he says are vitally important.



The registering as an independent rather than Democrat thing is probably the single biggest reason that he hasn't received more support from the democratic "establishment". Hardly see how that could be considered inconsequential.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Sanders
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:50 am 
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If Bernie wants to stay relevant he needs to concentrate on one issue and be an advocate for that. He also needs to eventually bow out gracefully. If he goes to the convention trying to get a back door nomination he will only seek to alienate people.

My biggest problem with him has always been that his good ideas came with many bad ideas. If he sticks with a theme of campaign finance reform then I think he can make a real difference. If he instead just wants to push his brand of Socialism on a broad scale then he will disappear quickly.

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