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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:09 pm 
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Sounds like several European countries have had enough. There are only so many people these small countries can reasonably accommodate and many countries have seen large spikes in violence and crime, particularly against women.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/den ... li=BBnbfcL

The Washington Post wrote:
Denmark, a social welfare utopia, takes a nasty turn on refugees

COPENHAGEN — Lise Ramslog was out for a barefoot amble on the warm day last September that Europe’s refugee crisis came to her remote village in southern Denmark.

The 70-year-old grandmother had planned a simple stroll to the bank. What she found in her quiet, coastal community were hundreds of exhausted asylum seekers who had arrived on the ferry from Germany only to be stranded without access to public transportation. Some had begun to walk along the highway in desperation.

Ramslog decided on the spot that she would help: She ended up giving two young couples, a small child and a newborn baby a 120-mile ride in her cramped sedan to their destination in Sweden. “When we crossed the border, they rejoiced and cried,” she recalled.

In another context, Ramslog might be known as a good Samaritan.

But the Danish government has a different term for her: convicted human smuggler.

The decision by authorities to prosecute Ramslog — and to charge hundreds of other Danish citizens with a similar crime — is to many here just the latest evidence of a society that, when faced with an unparalleled influx of migrants and refugees, has taken a nasty turn.

In that respect, Denmark has company: Across Europe, a once-tender embrace of those fleeing conflicts on the continent’s doorstep has evolved into an uncompromising rejection.

Last week, authorities in Greece began sending new arrivals back across the sea to Turkey, as part of a policy intended to permanently close the path via which more than 1 million people sought sanctuary last year.

But as Europe walls itself off, the continent is left to reckon with what’s become of its once-cherished humanitarian beliefs. And to many in Denmark, the chasm between reputation and reality looks particularly gaping.

“We’re losing respect for the values upon which we built our country and our European Union,” said Andreas Kamm, secretary general of the Danish Refugee Council. “It’s becoming very hard to defend human rights.”

This Scandinavian nation of compulsively friendly people is celebrated by U.S. presidential candidate Bernie Sanders as a social-welfare utopia, one that was recently judged the world’s happiest place. Ranking high in the country’s pantheon of heroes are those who protected Jews during the Holocaust or who helped the oppressed escape from behind the Iron Curtain during the Cold War.

But when it has come to those fleeing 21st-century conflicts on Europe’s doorstep, Denmark has gone into overdrive to broadcast its hostility. While Germany continues to welcome asylum seekers, and other European countries such as Sweden held their doors open for as long as they could, Denmark has taken a hard line almost from the beginning.

The government slashed refugees’ benefits, then advertised the cuts in Lebanese newspapers. It has enabled police to confiscate refugees’ valuables, including cash and jewelry. And authorities have made it far more difficult for those already here to reunite with their families, upping the wait time from one year to three.

Now ordinary Danes are getting caught up in the crackdown, punished for what many saw as a quintessentially good deed. “I’m proud of what I did and will never regret having done it,” said Ramslog, her gray hair highlighted by plastic pink heart barrettes and tears welling in her clear blue eyes. “But I don’t want to be known as a criminal.”

‘Huge pressure’

Yet that’s exactly what she is, following a March conviction. And according to the far-right party that holds the balance of power in the Danish Parliament, it’s what she deserves, even though the police ordered the state-run railway to begin transporting asylum seekers only days after Ramslog opened her car door and invited them in.

“These people broke the law,” said Peter Kofod Poulsen, a recently elected member of Parliament from the anti-immigration Danish People’s Party. “Human smuggling is not all right — not if it’s done by the train company and not if it’s done by private individuals.”

Poulsen, who at 26 is the Parliament’s third-youngest member, has helped push the country’s weak center-right government to take a less-forgiving line on asylum seekers since the once-fringe DPP surged to second place in elections in June.

The number of refugees taken in by Denmark, he said, should be “as close to zero as possible.” The alternative, in Poulsen’s view, is the end of everything Danes hold dear — including low crime rates and high-quality government services. Welcoming Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans and others fleeing war, he said, is just too burdensome.

“This country is falling apart,” said Poulsen, who is slim, blond and self-assured. “We used to have a safe, monocultural society. Now our welfare state is under huge pressure.”

The notion that Denmark can’t adequately look out for its own if it is also giving sanctuary to asylum seekers has found wide appeal here. Once-extreme anti-refugee positions are now embraced by a broad cross-section of the country’s politicians.

The hardening of public attitudes has been underway for at least a decade. But a key turning point in popular opinion may have been that day last September when asylum seekers took to the highways to walk.

Many had been blocked a week earlier from leaving Hungary, leading to a bulge in numbers on the migrant trail.

When they arrived in Denmark, on Sept. 7, they were initially barred from using public transport unless they agreed to be registered — something few were willing to do because they wanted to travel onward to more hospitable destinations, especially Sweden.

When Danes turned on their televisions that day, they saw highways clogged with people in need.

“That was an eye-opener for many Danes,” said Kasper Moller Hansen, a University of Copenhagen political scientist. “They thought, ‘Wow, that’s a lot of people. We can’t help all of them.’ ”

Instinctual response

Other Danes took a different lesson, jumping in their cars and driving to the small ferry terminal in Rodby to offer asylum seekers a lift.

Lisbeth Zornig, a well-known child-rights activist and author, was in the area and decided she couldn’t imagine driving back to Copenhagen with an empty car.

“I’d never seen people in need that way in Denmark before,” she said. “They were hungry. They were thirsty. They didn’t have anything but the clothes they were wearing.”

She opened her minivan’s doors to a small group of Syrians, and four adults and twin 5-year-old girls hopped in. “Two minutes later, they were sleeping in the back seat,” she said.

In Copenhagen, her husband, former journalist Mikael Lindholm, served them coffee and cookies, and offered to let them spend the night. But they were eager to get to Sweden, where anxious relatives awaited. He drove them to the train station.

Both Zornig and Lindholm were convicted last month of human smuggling — a crime usually associated with greedy profiteers, not humanitarian do-gooders. Each was ordered to pay a fine amounting to about $3,350.

Ramslog had her fine cut in half because she’s retired and lives on a small pension. It’s still far more than she can afford. Until now, her most serious run-in with the law was a speeding ticket.

She said she responded that September day from instinct, not from any plan. At most, she thought she would drive the refugees, who desperately wanted passage to Sweden, a few miles up the road. “But then I kept thinking, ‘Oh, I’ll just go a little further,’ ” she recalled.

The baby slept the whole way, pressed tight to her mother’s breast. The young boy nibbled on biscuits and sipped apple juice.

Ramslog was still barefoot when, as night fell, she steered her car across the bridge linking Denmark to Sweden. She had no phone and barely enough money to cover the toll.

“Thank you! Thank you!” her passengers exclaimed when she pulled over to drop them off.

Before they parted, Ramslog dug from her pocket a small charm — a four-leaf clover encased in glass that she had been given to remember her daughter, who died last year.

She pressed it into the boy’s palm.

“May you have better luck,” she said.

Karla Adam in London contributed to this report.

Spring could bring a fresh surge of refugees. But Europe isn’t ready for them.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:28 pm 
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Oh there's a brooding political crisis and they are fully aware of it.

The French dont even take census of ethnic, racial or national backgrounds. The most they ask is whether someone is foreign born or not. This used to be because prodding people in Strasbourg about their German background was seen as pas du tout égalitaire after the war, but now its because the French government considers ignorance as bliss. The day when the Socialists have to form a coalition with the Republicans to keep Front National out of the government is coming, and both parties want to stall it as long as possible. Same applies to the UKIP's or whatever neo-Nazi movement is sweeping through Scandinavia right now.

France will almost undoubtedly be the harbinger though. The left there has been tactfully voting to keep FN under control for so long that after the attacks last year they basically had to fly themselves into the sun during the last regional elections. They've collapsed.

The EU is not in mortal danger from the continent yet (UK could feasibly leave though), but this issue is threatening it. Even the fucking Germans are getting sick of them after NYE in Cologne.

This hot little thing is the youngest MP in French history, she's fairly irresistible and extremely anti-immigrant. Here she is bitching about Islam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxbPz8hKQHw&nohtml5
French politics are wonderful.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:36 pm 
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i get that you're still young enough to let all of this piss you off; but seriously, in 5 years if you're still this full of piss and vinegar about life and governments, we need to make sure you don't own any guns or bombs.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:45 pm 
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I really don't get too mad about all this stuff. I hate the Cubs and thats about it.

If I were French or British I would probably be voting far right, as would most Americans I think.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:00 pm 
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W_Z wrote:
i get that you're still young enough to let all of this piss you off; but seriously, in 5 years if you're still this full of piss and vinegar about life and governments, we need to make sure you don't own any guns or bombs.

:lol: what? is this a wrong thread post?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:08 pm 
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no. it's not specific to this topic though.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:45 pm 
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Don't worry it's not all of them? Was it a jeopardy question?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:50 pm 
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America wrote:
I hate the Cubs and thats about it.



that's even more concerning. i just don't want a hostage crisis here.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:00 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:30 am 
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/colu ... olumn.html


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:03 am 
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Too late to go back now, Turkey has them by the balls.

They've put the gun up to their own collective heads and gleefully pulled the trigger.

Game over.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:29 am 
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Aside from Germany, which is almost completely fucked at this point, there is still time for Europeans to realize that Sunni Islam is incompatible with Western Civilization. Europe does not have the same protections the USA does, they can (and do) ban speech there. They can outright ban Sunni mosques in Europe, whereas here we rely on social forces to muscle them out.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:31 am 
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America wrote:
Aside from Germany, which is almost completely fucked at this point, there is still time for Europeans to realize that Sunni Islam is incompatible with Western Civilization. Europe does not have the same protections the USA does, they can (and do) ban speech there. They can outright ban Sunni mosques in Europe, whereas here we rely on social forces to muscle them out.
I think all those European countries should give up a good portion of their land to the refugees who can then form their own country.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:35 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
America wrote:
Aside from Germany, which is almost completely fucked at this point, there is still time for Europeans to realize that Sunni Islam is incompatible with Western Civilization. Europe does not have the same protections the USA does, they can (and do) ban speech there. They can outright ban Sunni mosques in Europe, whereas here we rely on social forces to muscle them out.
I think all those European countries should give up a good portion of their land to the refugees who can then form their own country.

Is Brick being sarcastic, or has he forgotten what words like "Syrian" and "Libyan" are demonyms for?


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:38 am 
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America wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
America wrote:
Aside from Germany, which is almost completely fucked at this point, there is still time for Europeans to realize that Sunni Islam is incompatible with Western Civilization. Europe does not have the same protections the USA does, they can (and do) ban speech there. They can outright ban Sunni mosques in Europe, whereas here we rely on social forces to muscle them out.
I think all those European countries should give up a good portion of their land to the refugees who can then form their own country.

Is Brick being sarcastic, or has he forgotten what words like "Syrian" and "Libyan" are demonyms for?


He is looking for a discussion.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:43 am 
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America wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
America wrote:
Aside from Germany, which is almost completely fucked at this point, there is still time for Europeans to realize that Sunni Islam is incompatible with Western Civilization. Europe does not have the same protections the USA does, they can (and do) ban speech there. They can outright ban Sunni mosques in Europe, whereas here we rely on social forces to muscle them out.
I think all those European countries should give up a good portion of their land to the refugees who can then form their own country.

Is Brick being sarcastic, or has he forgotten what words like "Syrian" and "Libyan" are demonyms for?
We ask Israel to do it. Why not Germany and France?

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:48 am 
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Their batshit religion cant get along with anyone and they fucked their countries up. You'd have a point if these countries didn't already exist.

Though the term "exist" when applied to Libya and Syria has to be used very loosely.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:53 am 
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America wrote:
Their batshit religion cant get along with anyone and they fucked their countries up. You'd have a point if these countries didn't already exist.
Didn't you create a thread called "Apartheid Israel" though?

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:57 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
America wrote:
Their batshit religion cant get along with anyone and they fucked their countries up. You'd have a point if these countries didn't already exist.
Didn't you create a thread called "Apartheid Israel" though?

It's one thing to tell Sunni's they cannot move to France and ruin it. It is another to oppress people in their homeland.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:58 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
America wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
America wrote:
Aside from Germany, which is almost completely fucked at this point, there is still time for Europeans to realize that Sunni Islam is incompatible with Western Civilization. Europe does not have the same protections the USA does, they can (and do) ban speech there. They can outright ban Sunni mosques in Europe, whereas here we rely on social forces to muscle them out.
I think all those European countries should give up a good portion of their land to the refugees who can then form their own country.

Is Brick being sarcastic, or has he forgotten what words like "Syrian" and "Libyan" are demonyms for?
We ask Israel to do it. Why not Germany and France?


Those two, once proud, nations have already kind of done just that.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:00 am 
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America wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
America wrote:
Their batshit religion cant get along with anyone and they fucked their countries up. You'd have a point if these countries didn't already exist.
Didn't you create a thread called "Apartheid Israel" though?

It's one thing to tell Sunni's they cannot move to France and ruin it. It is another to oppress people in their homeland.

America wrote:
Aside from Germany, which is almost completely fucked at this point, there is still time for Europeans to realize that Sunni Islam is incompatible with Western Civilization
The majority of Palestinians are Sunni Islam.

So shouldn't Germany just accept it too?

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:11 am 
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Germany is home to Germans.
France is home to French.
Great Britain is home to British.
---
Syria is home to Syrians
Libya is home to Libyans
Palestine is home to Palestinians.

Look, we all know where we would rather live. Brick, you and I can hang out in Perpignan getting drunk and oogling the hot Catalan girls or get our heads cut off for being ~Christian in Syria? I know which we are picking. But hey, we are westerners and that's fine. That's our culture.

We can enjoy our western civilization without imposing it on the nutjobs in Palestine. Islam does not belong in Europe for the exact same reasons Israel doesn't belong in Palestine.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:22 am 
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America wrote:

We can enjoy our western civilization without imposing it on the nutjobs in Palestine. Islam does not belong in Europe for the exact same reasons Israel doesn't belong in Palestine.


What is Palestine, though?


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:28 am 
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Israel in its current form has existed for a lot longer than Germany has in its current form though.

The point is that if it is "incompatible" with Germany then wouldn't it also be "incompatible" with Israel?

Considering Palestinians are just immigrants from other countries that already exist I think it is only fair to just give up some land in Germany for these refugees too.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:31 am 
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SomeGuy wrote:
America wrote:

We can enjoy our western civilization without imposing it on the nutjobs in Palestine. Islam does not belong in Europe for the exact same reasons Israel doesn't belong in Palestine.


What is Palestine, though?



Just a brief reading of this leaves me to believe there is no clear answer to your question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:31 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Israel in its current form has existed for a lot longer than Germany has in its current form though.

There have been Germans living in Germany much longer than there have been Israeli's living in Israel. Even if we pretend there was no such thing as "German" until 1871, which would be silly, the German nation still predates Israel.

Quote:
The point is that if it is "incompatible" with Germany then wouldn't it also be "incompatible" with Israel?

Considering Palestinians are just immigrants from other countries that already exist I think it is only fair to just give up some land in Germany for these refugees too.

How do you classify people who have lived in the West Bank and Gaza for generations as immigrants?


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:39 am 
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America wrote:
There have been Germans living in Germany much longer than there have been Israeli's living in Israel. Even if we pretend there was no such thing as "German" until 1871, which would be silly, the German nation still predates Israel.
Germany did not exist in its current form when you and me were born. Also, I'm pretty sure Jews have been in the whole area of Israel for a really long time too.
America wrote:
How do you classify people who have lived in the West Bank and Gaza for generations as immigrants?
Most of them showed up after Israel existed or were born to those who did. Not too much different than Germany here.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:45 am 
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build a wall

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 6:26 pm 
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Walt Williams Neck wrote:
build a wall


And make the refugees pay for it.

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