That's like if Beardown had Mac chained up to his basement furnace ...

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

How does it seem right to you to rank a guy with a .526 career winning % and 1.247 career WHIP as the 24th best pitcher of all time? Like you, I'm far from a baseball historian myself, but that sounds like an extremely tough sell.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Rank

Player (yrs, age)

WAR for Pitchers

Throws


1. Cy Young+ (22) 170.3 R
2. Walter Johnson+ (21) 152.3 R
3. Roger Clemens (24) 139.4 R
4. Pete Alexander+ (20) 117.0 R
5. Kid Nichols+ (15) 116.6 R
6. Lefty Grove+ (17) 109.9 L
7. Tom Seaver+ (20) 106.3 R
8. Greg Maddux+ (23) 104.6 R
9. Randy Johnson+ (22) 104.3 L
10. Phil Niekro+ (24) 97.4 R
11. Bert Blyleven+ (22) 96.5 R
12. Christy Mathewson+ (17) 95.3 R
13. Gaylord Perry+ (22) 93.7 R
14. Warren Spahn+ (21) 92.6 L
15. Tim Keefe+ (14) 88.9 R
16. Eddie Plank+ (17) 86.5 L
17. Pedro Martinez+ (18) 86.0 R
18. John Clarkson+ (12) 85.7 R
19. Steve Carlton+ (24) 84.1 L
20. Nolan Ryan+ (27) 83.8 R
21. Pud Galvin+ (15) 83.6 R
22. Robin Roberts+ (19) 83.1 R
23. Fergie Jenkins+ (19) 82.8 R
24. Mike Mussina (18) 82.7 R
25. Bob Gibson+ (17) 81.9 R

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

That's a counting stat, and the guy leads MLB history in seasons played, so that's not really evidence of anything.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Oh. I thought we were looking at careers, not single seasons.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

We are, and longevity is just one factor.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

OK. argue it out with Bill James. Top 25, top 50 whatever. I know I'd rather have his career than Candelaria's.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

What is that supposed to mean? Of course Ryan has a giant WAR. He pitched forever. And yeah, that counts for something. So does all the innings he covered. I was being a little glib when I pulled Candelaria out, but the fact is he limited baserunners better than Ryan.

I'm sure you're not going to really argue that Phil Niekro and Bert Blyleven are the tenth and eleventh best pitchers of all time.

In fact, Blyleven is a good comp for Ryan. They're both special guys, but not really great pitchers. Ryan had the greatest fastball ever and Blyleven the greatest curve. Those pitches allowed them some amazing moments, but they're both really more like Kerry Wood than they are like Seaver or the Johnsons.

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I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
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http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/5 ... e-stat-top

WAR per 200 IP. Ryan not in top 25.

there aren't 25 more seavers and johnsons OK?

Blyleven kicked some fucking ass the first 10 years of his career. Sub 3 ERA avg 280 innings/year.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

There are all kinds of good pitchers that don't even appear on that list. Some great pitchers that aren't on there. Only a lunatic would argue that Ryan was better than Juan Marichal.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

only a lunatic would argue Candelaria was better than Ryan.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Only a lunatic would argue a guy is the 24th best pitcher of all time when he barely won half his starts.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Just like someone would argue that a guy who almost died in a fight won because the other guy had a bump on his head.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't have enough perspective to know. I didn't start watching until the mid-80's, and I didn't see Ryan pitch very often. I don't have a horse in this fight. He has the most K's, which indicates dominance and longevity. He had a ton of walks, which means control issues. But batters had a tough time getting hits off him as evidenced by his average against. WHIP is a great stat, but for Ryan, it is just another indication of his wildness.

If he's not 24, where would you put him?

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Hawaii (fuck) You

There's an argument to be made there though. If you say that a pitcher's job is to limit baserunners, then Candelaria was clearly better at that. Candelaria's teams had a better chance of winning with him on the mound than Ryan's teams did with Ryan. And that isn't because of "run support".

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Bill James argued it. Go read the entire Wikipedia entry on Ryan and see what you think FF.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You

Let me guess. Bill James had Kerry Wood #1.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm willing to bet that had he played long enough Woods' numbers would look remarkably similar to Ryan's .

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

10 more pages

pitchers job is to limit runs scored against. Ryan was better than average at that and did it longer than anyone. So he's in the mix with Neikro, Blyleven, Fergie Jenkins, Kaat. Those sorts. Below your elites like Maddux, Johnson, Pedro.

I'd probably put him top 50 since the 1930s but I haven't penciled it out.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Fergie was better though.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Low batting average against, lot of walks,lot of strikeouts, .500 or so winning percentage

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Wherever JORR wants to put him. I don't have a clue.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

But you said "only a lunatic would put him at 24" so you obviously have an opinion on the subject.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You

I was never the statistical savant Jason Bernstein is when I was younger but I never felt like I was watching the 24th best pitcher of all time throw when I saw Ryan pitch .

_________________
Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Yeah, but that's about the extent of it. I think some numbers have to necessarily disqualify a player from the discussion of best whoever played(top 25 or whatever). I think Ryan's winning percentage and career WHIP are those numbers in this case.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I think it was JORR that talked about his erratic performances, so that is probably why. He had a ton of dominant games too. I guess it mattered which ones you watched.

"Ryan is the all-time leader in no-hitters with seven, three more than any other pitcher. He is tied with Bob Feller for the most one-hitters, with 12. Ryan also pitched 18 two-hitters."

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You

Let's revisit this in a few years. Arrieta's still just getting started.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Hmm third highest Hall of Fame vote percentage....and those voters are SOB's. Lunatics for sure.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullp ... ercentages

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Hawaii (fuck) You