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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:36 am 
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Voting is binary.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:39 am 
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pittmike wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Hillary never threatened to take the fight up through the convention. She also never attempted to sway superdelegates. She also didn't incessantly whine about the process. She accepted the eventual outcome. I don't think Sanders is going to do that


:lol: What? She did every one of those things, and she might be the most entitled politician I've ever seen. Her behavior this election is essentially "how dare someone challenge my throne". Your bias is blatant and obvious.


Leash and I are in 100% agreement.


That's because we're both brilliant, Michael.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:41 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Hillary never threatened to take the fight up through the convention. She also never attempted to sway superdelegates. She also didn't incessantly whine about the process. She accepted the eventual outcome. I don't think Sanders is going to do that

This may be your worst post ever. Don't be silly.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:51 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Then voting for the nominee of that party doesn't make sense.


That's the system as constructed though. Lesser of two evils. Otherwise you just sit out every election waiting for the perfect candidate.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:53 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Then voting for the nominee of that party doesn't make sense.


That's the system as constructed though. Lesser of two evils. Otherwise you just sit out every election waiting for the perfect candidate.
So why not register as a Republican or Democrat then?

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:59 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Then voting for the nominee of that party doesn't make sense.


That's the system as constructed though. Lesser of two evils. Otherwise you just sit out every election waiting for the perfect candidate.
So why not register as a Republican or Democrat then?


Rick, do you believe that the system needs any reforming at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:04 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Rick, do you believe that the system needs any reforming at all?
Things could always be improved.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:07 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Hillary never threatened to take the fight up through the convention. She also never attempted to sway superdelegates. She also didn't incessantly whine about the process. She accepted the eventual outcome. I don't think Sanders is going to do that


She did all of those things and even mentioned the death of Bobby Kennedy.


Hilary was far worse in 2008. The Kennedy thing was sick. And she was trying to use race against Obama as well. People have short memories.


She ultimately fell in line but she was awful. Even pushed the Muslim and birther stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:08 am 
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Leash and others are dead wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:11 am 
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Rick is dead on.

As for changes to our system, you are inviting more serious problems. The only changes that I have seen at the state level that may make sense are:

-Independent mapping for Congressional Districts. Illinois will vote on this in a referendum in November unless the courts block the current proposal.
-Open primaries that are now the law in California. Presumably, this change moves candidates to the middle instead of the extreme. If you are not aware of the system, simply, all candidates run in the same primary regardless of party, and the two highest vote getters square off in the general. Thus you could have two Dems or two Repubs running against one another. It forces candidates to move to the middle to attract votes in both parties.

If you try to change the system to a more parliamentary or proportional representation system, the following flaws crop up:
-Coalition governments. While that sounds great, it gives outsize power to small minority parties as they become kingmakers. It is actually how the Nazis rose in Germany.
-Small interest group parties like in Brazil where there are several dozen parties in government. In those cases, you have to buy off many small parties just to get anything done. This means dolling out graft and plum ministerial jobs. With no one party in control, you cannot drive any serious agenda.
-Extremely weak governments that fall quickly. Japan had a run where no prime minister lasted a year. Australia has been dealing with non stop PM changes. Portugal, Belgium and Spain cannot form governments because of no clear winner in elections. I think Belgium is close to two years without a government.

The main problem with the U.S. System is that political climate is one of brinkmanship. It is almost a cultural aversion to compromise (sound like Springfield?). For whatever reason, folks think they can get 100% of what they want instead of finding middle ground to give both sides something in any piece of legislation. The system is not designed to have one party control all branches of government and ram through changes. That is the inherent checks and balances built into the Constitution that makes for stability in government and laws.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:13 am 
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Nas wrote:
Leash and others are dead wrong.


Sad. You can't even remember your last post.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:19 am 
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denisdman wrote:
If you try to change the system to a more parliamentary or proportional representation system, the following flaws crop up:
-Coalition governments. While that sounds great, it gives outsize power to small minority parties as they become kingmakers. It is actually how the Nazis rose in Germany.


The Nazis did not rise to power because of a parliamentary system. That was the old guard trying to use a political movement for it's own devises, only to have it turn on them.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:23 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Rick is dead on.

As for changes to our system, you are inviting more serious problems. The only changes that I have seen at the state level that may make sense are:

-Independent mapping for Congressional Districts. Illinois will vote on this in a referendum in November unless the courts block the current proposal.
-Open primaries that are now the law in California. Presumably, this change moves candidates to the middle instead of the extreme. If you are not aware of the system, simply, all candidates run in the same primary regardless of party, and the two highest vote getters square off in the general. Thus you could have two Dems or two Repubs running against one another. It forces candidates to move to the middle to attract votes in both parties.

If you try to change the system to a more parliamentary or proportional representation system, the following flaws crop up:
-Coalition governments. While that sounds great, it gives outsize power to small minority parties as they become kingmakers. It is actually how the Nazis rose in Germany.
-Small interest group parties like in Brazil where there are several dozen parties in government. In those cases, you have to buy off many small parties just to get anything done. This means dolling out graft and plum ministerial jobs. With no one party in control, you cannot drive any serious agenda.
-Extremely weak governments that fall quickly. Japan had a run where no prime minister lasted a year. Australia has been dealing with non stop PM changes. Portugal, Belgium and Spain cannot form governments because of no clear winner in elections. I think Belgium is close to two years without a government.

The main problem with the U.S. System is that political climate is one of brinkmanship. It is almost a cultural aversion to compromise (sound like Springfield?). For whatever reason, folks think they can get 100% of what they want instead of finding middle ground to give both sides something in any piece of legislation. The system is not designed to have one party control all branches of government and ram through changes. That is the inherent checks and balances built into the Constitution that makes for stability in government and laws.


The biggest problem with our system is that the executive branch has become way, way, way more powerful than it was ever intended to be. A silver lining to a Trump presidency might be that we'll finally learn to exit the business of choosing an emperor.

You're citing Belgium and Brazil as examples of parliamentary system failing when we would have far more in common with the UK and Canada, whose parliaments seem about as solid as can be, than with small or developing nations.

I share your concern with the kingmaking minority parties, as one of ours would invariably be some sort of Dixiecrat/Neo-Confederate faction of southern white supremacists. People like them could indeed have outsize authority in how our government comes together, but then again, don't they already?

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:25 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
Leash and others are dead wrong.


Sad. You can't even remember your last post.


About voting. If you aren't a member of a particular group or organization you don't have the right to vote in its elections.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:27 am 
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Let's please make a distinction between a teachers' union and the duopoly of political parties that runs our government at the federal, state, and often municipal level. No, I shouldn't be voting for the president of the Annie Sullivan Elementary School student council, but I should be able to cast one (1) vote in the primary of my choosing, whether or not I'm a member of the hallowed, most sacred Party.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:28 am 
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Nas wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
Leash and others are dead wrong.


Sad. You can't even remember your last post.


About voting. If you aren't a member of a particular group or organization you don't have the right to vote in its elections.


I'm not even in that discussion, broseph. I'm just making fun of Rick.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:31 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
but I should be able to cast one (1) vote in the primary of my choosing, whether or not I'm a member of the hallowed, most sacred Party.
Can you explain why you should have that right?

If that were the case, why wouldn't every supporter of the incumbent President go vote for the absolute worst guy in the other party?

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:35 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If that were the case, why wouldn't every supporter of the incumbent President go vote for the absolute worst guy in the other party?


Donald Trump is the Republican nominee.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:35 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Let's please make a distinction between a teachers' union and the duopoly of political parties that runs our government at the federal, state, and often municipal level. No, I shouldn't be voting for the president of the Annie Sullivan Elementary School student council, but I should be able to cast one (1) vote in the primary of my choosing, whether or not I'm a member of the hallowed, most sacred Party.



Couldn't you formally join said party and vote? Then if next go round you feel differently change affiliation? Seems to me they do not want a bunch of people swinging primaries for some evil reason then voting opposite party in the general.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:35 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Let's please make a distinction between a teachers' union and the duopoly of political parties that runs our government at the federal, state, and often municipal level. No, I shouldn't be voting for the president of the Annie Sullivan Elementary School student council, but I should be able to cast one (1) vote in the primary of my choosing, whether or not I'm a member of the hallowed, most sacred Party.


Even though most states allow it, and I have taken advantage of it (to vote for candidates that I did not believe could win the general election), I don't believe you should be able to influence the outcome of a primary if you aren't a member of the party.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:35 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If that were the case, why wouldn't every supporter of the incumbent President go vote for the absolute worst guy in the other party?


Donald Trump is the Republican nominee.
There was a worse guy. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:36 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If that were the case, why wouldn't every supporter of the incumbent President go vote for the absolute worst guy in the other party?


Donald Trump is the Republican nominee.


I voted for him too.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:37 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If that were the case, why wouldn't every supporter of the incumbent President go vote for the absolute worst guy in the other party?


Donald Trump is the Republican nominee.
There was a worse guy. :lol:


I thought you supported Rubio?

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:37 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If that were the case, why wouldn't every supporter of the incumbent President go vote for the absolute worst guy in the other party?


Donald Trump is the Republican nominee.
There was a worse guy. :lol:


Who? Cruz? The worst amongst that group was debatable.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:39 am 
Bernie Bros are an odd group.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:39 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Couldn't you formally join said party and vote? Then if next go round you feel differently change affiliation? Seems to me they do not want a bunch of people swinging primaries for some evil reason then voting opposite party in the general.


I don't think this would really happen. It's sort of like Wisconsin and their voter ID laws: yes, in theory, seven busloads of illegal Mexicans could roll into town and throw the election to the Demmycrats, but in reality, this isn't very likely. Most people will either vote for their preferred candidate, or, of course, being America, not vote in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:41 am 
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Baby McNown wrote:
Bernie Bros are an odd group.


From the guy who tells others to fuck themselves on rusty poles.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:42 am 
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"Rush told me tuh vote fer Hillary to stop the black but I dunno whur muh votin' place is and 'sides I gotta take a dump before break's over."

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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:43 am 
leashyourkids wrote:
Baby McNown wrote:
Bernie Bros are an odd group.


From the guy who tells others to fuck themselves on rusty poles.


Why are you so angry Leash?


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 Post subject: Re: Bernie Trump Debate?
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:43 am 
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Certainly wouldn't have guessed Baby McNown would be a #HillaryMan. I mean, talk about a lack of civility!

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