And if he's losing, the other pitcher is holding the Sox under their average. If Quintana is so great why can't he pitch better than most guys he faces?

And a pitcher should go into every game thinking, "I have to give up less runs than the other guy."

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I didn't say there was. But you seem to be ignoring the fact that in his games another pitcher is most often pitching as well or better than he is. You're putting a lot of stock in a fraction of a run average offense. The Yankees score less than the Sox. Didn't Quintana have a day off when he lost to them?

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Yeah but what is it good for?
Absolutely nothing.

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He more often then not has moments where he breaks down and gives the game to the opposing team or at least gives up the lead. He can cruise all he wants but if the cruise ends up in a car wreck then who cares what he did in innings 1-6?

That's right. In the post-steroid era (and for most of baseball history) each game comes down to one or two critical pitches. The Great Quintana ain't making them.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Nicely done.

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Not a mult.

Not only does he not make them he doesn't make anything for several batters. Misses spots, walks and gives up big hits. And you know when it's coming, you see it a mile away. Completely changes the game. It has a Javy Vasquez feel to it.

He's someone you sell high on.

If he makes it through 6 innings, (i know, pussification) isn't that more an indictment on the pitching coach/manager of not getting him out in time. I remember watching Ventura do that a lot with Shark. He clearly would go off the rails in the 7th, and rather than salvage a lead, he would wait for his starter to lose the lead.

For the record, Quintana gets 3.29 runs a game, Sale gets 5.51. If you subtract 2 runs a game from the Sox during Chris's starts, his record flips to 5-6. If you add 2 runs per start to every game of Quintana, his record goes to 9-2.

You're not making any sense. You asked why he doesn't hold the opposing team under their average and I pointed out he does it in 90 fucking percent of his starts. Now you're asking why he doesn't give up 0 runs every outing. He doesn't because he isn't facing the White Sox. It's easier to shut them out. He isn't losing 6-5. He's losing 1-0 or 2-1 on a regular basis. Sale is great enough to hold the opposing team to a half run less than Quintana so he wins a few more games.

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Actually, I'm making perfect sense and I've never asked either of those questions. Clearly, his ERA illustrates that on average he holds teams below what they score. The question I'm asking that you can't answer is, why can't The Great Quintana hold his opponents to less runs than their average more often than the pitchers he is facing hold the White Sox under theirs?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Unfortunately, you can't transfer The Great Quintana's pitching efforts to other games.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
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With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Both should be gone.

If we ignore W/L record, it's very difficult to argue that Mark Buehrle was a better pitcher than Vazquez.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

What does "better" mean in this instance?

If I'm picking between the two for a playoff start I'm not touching Have with a 10ft clown pole.

"Better" means the way the modern fan chooses to judge them that causes him to believe that Quintana is great.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

He pitches half his games at US Cellular field. No, the conditions don't make for unusually low scoring games. The White Sox offense has been PUTRID for the duration of Quintana's career.

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But the distribution about the AL mean isn't that spread out. 3.8 R/G is the bottom of the league. The Sox are much closer to the bottom than they are the middle, and are certainly in the lower-third of the AL in scoring per game, and are just about one standard deviation away from the mean. Take out the Sawx mammoth scoring figures, and the White Sox are a nose hair away from being a standard deviation away on the wrong side of the average.

They're scoring more runs than they have the last few years, but so is everyone in the league. Also, since May 9th, they're averaging 3.8 R/G, worst in the league.

So? U.S. Cellular Field isn't really the offensive paradise it's made out to be. Yes, the Sox have had a shitty offense for much of The Great Quintana's career. But if he's really so great, shouldn't he be able to pitch better than the other guy most of the time? You're acting like he's facing the '27 Yankees every time out and the Sox are the 2010 Mariners.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The fact is that the difference between the Sox offense and the other team in the majority of The Great Quintana's starts is a fraction of a run that he cannot pitch over, despite his greatness.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Quintana

+

Floyd Bannister

=

MATCH

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JORR, do you think Quintana is bad or just over loved?

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I don't think he's bad. He's just not a front of the rotation guy. He's signed at a reasonable price for what he gives you. On a better team he'd probably get a few more runs. But I get the feeling his advocates think if he were on the Cubs or Nationals he'd be 19-6 or 20-5 and I think his ERA would be higher and he'd still be 14-13. But it's really all theoretical because when that actually happens then I'm arguing against a guy who says, "Well, he didn't pitch as good with the Nats as he did with the White Sox." So we'll never be able to agree. He's fine. But if you're asking me if I'm excited to have him on my team, the answer is no.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Fair enough. I'm not anti-SABR but I never got the love for Quintana either. He seems like a perfectly fine #3 to me.

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Quintana has a 2.35 FIP, and a Run Average of 2.7. I don't think it's fair to dock him "greatness points" because he doesn't pass some completely arbitrary benchmark of "super-greatness" when his team doesn't score runs. In only 5 of his 12 starts has his team given him 4 or more runs, which itself is being very generous considering that isn't accounting for when the team's runs were scored, and his RA is counting games blown by the bullpen in later innings.

If you're going to argue that "great pitchers do it", then I'll need to be shown when the likes of Clayton Kershaw turn their greatness to 11 when they see their team isn't going to score, and how it is determined that such things are actively accomplished.

He does 90% of the time. I guess he can shoot for 100%. He literally hasn't won 1 game this year when he gave up more than 1 run and he even lost a game when he only gave up 1 run. I know you hate advanced stats and want to give the Sox offense a pass but it's really clear what the problem is. Give him 3 runs every game and he's going to win at least 60% of his starts. Give him 4 or more and he'll win 90% of his starts.

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Why are you so willing to completely ignore game context?

Do you consider Javy Vazquez better than Mark Buehrle? If not, why not?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You did ask that question. In 90% of his outings he does it.

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I don't believe that to be true.

There are guys that pitch well enough to lose. Quintana is one of them.

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No one is ignoring anything except for you. Quintana is consistent. He doesn't give up 5 runs 1 game and 1 run the next. If that were the case I would be in agreement with you.

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Be well

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Yes, it is. We've both been to a lot of games there. You more than I. You know this. The ball flies everywhere...and the dimensions are small. The infield speed is above average. You don't need to look at Park Factors to know this. But if you want: http://www.parkfactors.com/chw

The park is not particularly small and the ball doesn't "fly all over". Sure, it did when you had a lineup with Thomas, Lee, Ordonez, and Valentin. And there are a lot of issues with the various "park factors".

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.