Or give up 0 runs. He's undefeated this season when he's given up 0 runs. He's 0-6 when he gives up more than 1 run.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

There it is! Been looking for this split. And doing the work by hand, looks like the team gives Quintana an average of 1.71 runs per start while he's actually in the game.

For comparison, the Sox averaged 3.18 "Runs per Start" for Mat Latos while he was going 6-2.

Really, this is example 7,000,001 of why "pitching wins" is an awful metric by which to solely judge a pitcher, and a mostly useless one when used in concert with other stats. JORR knows all this, probably, but has doubled- and tripled-down for reasons known only to him, and will continue to deny Quintana's dominance because he averages 2 runs per game given up, not 1.70.

Run Averages for some other pitchers in the league (Quintana is at 2.0):

1.79 (Bumgarner)
1.43 (Kershaw)
2.29 (Tanaka)
1.5 (Salazar)
2.08 (Estrada)
2.14 (Lewis)
2.36 (Sale)
1.5 (Syndergaard)
1.36 (Arrieta)
2.14 (Strasburg)
2.57 (Scherzer)
1.86 (Cueto)

Everybody on this list would be a few wins "worse" were they to be backed by the White Sox offense. Hell, Bumgarner and Cueto could be close to .500, they would be SO BAD if they just happened to play for a team that is ill-constructed to score runs and has been for their entire career.

That's purely conjecture.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The Sox average 4+ runs of offense across all their games. That is the team's capability. A measure of their offensive prowess (or lack thereof). You seem to be making the suggestion that The Great Quintana is somehow cursed or that his teammates hate him, rather than the much more likely explanation that the games Quintana is pitching have certain conditions that cause the scoring to be low. Those conditions have an effect on the runs allowed by both pitchers. The Great Quintana just happens to allow more than the other guy on many occasions which is why he is not really "great".

I'm not arguing that the Sox offense isn't a factor here. Maybe when his entire carer is in the books we can look at Quintana and say, yeah, his record would probably be a little better had he pitched for more big offenses. But as I have explained on multiple occasions, the difference between the two teams in the vast majority of games is less than a full run which clearly cannot be scored within said single game, meaning that from a practical standpoint you have two four run offenses. If Quintana is so great why doesn't his pitching round the average down while the "lesser" guy he is facing rounds the Sox average up?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You do understand there are pitchers in those games that you would apparently have us believe are not as good as Jose Quintana who are giving up less than he does when he loses those games, right?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Is it unreasonable to expect a great pitcher to allow less runs than the less than great pitchers he is facing?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

If I get to pitch against a little league offense, and James Shields has to pitch against Cleveland's offense...and I give up 0 ER while Shields gives up 8 ER...am I a better pitcher?

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

This thread needs to go wading on a beach and get eaten by an alligator.

_________________

No one Jose Quintana has ever faced was going up against a Little League offense. Most of the time the team he is facing averages less than a run per game more than his own big league offense and on some occasions his own offense averages more than the one he is facing. Next question.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I hope Quintana does that. Or better yet, I hope he gets traded to the Red Sox so he can show everyone exactly who he really is and we can all stop blaming someone else for his failures.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

This is more bullshit. The inability to score runs is the only problem. There aren't snow storms in the 60%+ of games he is allowing 2 runs or less. They're giving him less than 2 runs of support this season. There haven't been any extreme weather conditions. The Sox offense sucks. Going into a game knowing that there is a 16% chance that you are going to lose if you give up 1 run and a 100% chance you're going to lose if you give up more than 1 has to be difficult.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Who the fuck mentioned a snow storm? There is a different plate umpire in every game. Do you think they have an effect? There is a different hitter's background and different shadows depending on when and where the game is played. I'm sure you're aware of that. Do you think those factors effect scoring?

The fact is the White Sox average 4+ runs per game. In the vast majority of his games Quintana is also facing an offense that averages 4+ runs per game. I'm open to the possibility that Jose Quintana is simply the unluckiest man ever to toe the rubber, as unlikely as that scenario may be. But before we adopt such as fact, I think there are many much more likely explanations for his lack of success.

Doesn't every pitcher going against Quintana "know" he isn't going to get "support" in his game that day? Yet these pitchers- most of whom you would say are not as good as The Great Quintana- somehow persevere and allow less runs than even The Great Quintana himself.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

But only 1.71 while he is on the mound, and only 2.56 in games he starts.



And he averages giving up half of that.



He has been incredibly unlucky, in that his already-anemic offensive team has been downright laughable in games he has started. This component of luck is undeniable.



He's had plenty of success as a pitcher, especially this season. His "lack of success" is in a statistic that has been demonstrated, over and over for you, to be faulty at best, and useless at worst.



Quintana would carry no-hitters into the middle innings every time out against the Sox. The problem is, he plays for them, and must rely on their atrocious offense and boneheaded manager.

This has been explained to you (like many things) many times: The Sox offense is severely hampered by even above-average pitching, and utterly stifled by great pitchers. Jose Quintana is stifling very nearly every offense he faces.

Over Quintana's last 7 starts, the Sox have scored a total of 5 runs.

_________________

The logical conclusion to this all would be JORR accepting that two averages with only decimal points of a difference can make a large difference over the course of a season, or a career.

That won't happen.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I assume you're talking about his 14 starts this year. A very small sample. I'm looking at his record over approximately 140 career starts. Beyond that, you're simply throwing numbers out there. I have no argument with the facts. I'm looking at the "why". You seem to think the man is cursed or his team refuses to hit on those days he takes the mound. I find the likelihood that there is another reason, such as favorable conditions for pitchers that effect him and the guy on the other team equally to make much more sense than some "curse".



And obviously, the pitchers he is opposing average giving up half of what the Sox average.



Not over 140 career starts. There is no starting pitcher in history with that many starts and a losing record that anyone could reasonably call "great". If there is, feel free to find him and point him out.



You and I define success differently. If he's successful, they guys he is facing must be legendary.



More silly and pointless conjecture.



It's been explained to you countless times that an average of a fraction of a run is something that can't actually be scored in a game. So most of the time Quintana and the guy he is facing are being "supported" by offenses that average 4 practical runs per game. Even if you want to call the opposition a five run team, shouldn't a "great" pitcher be able to make up that single run with a much lesser pitcher facing the White Sox? Or are we back to the "Quintana is cursed and the Sox won't score when he takes the mound" argument?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

If that's actually the case, you should be able to find me one- just one- pitcher over the 150 year history of baseball that was unlucky and unsupported and a great starting pitcher with a losing career record. Go!

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Clearly, this argument will never be resolved with numbers. A thought experiment is the best route. Where is Darkside?

_________________

He went for an MRI.

_________________

JORR thinks that's enough run support.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

As someone who doesn't care either way, that's a pretty damning stat. That can't possibly just be "conditions."

_________________

JORR calls this season a small sample size but the ignores the same trend over 90% of his career starts.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Since 2013, the Sox average 3.48 Runs Per Game when Jose Quintana starts (not just when he is in-game). League average has been 4.23 in the same time frame.

I think you have that backwards. JORR is using his career starts as the basis for his opinion.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

FTFY

I think the only way you can make a case that W-L is meaningless is if you believe the players are robots and not subject to human emotion.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I think you have to define the argument. Is it that W/L is meaningless or that it's not as good as other stats? Also, are we using it to assess past performance or predict future performance?

If JORR's argument is that over a career, wins and losses even themselves out, thus making it a reliable stat to rank careers, I wouldn't disagree. If you are ranking the best 20 pitchers ever and went by wins, you'd probably do okay.

But the problem with wins is that it means very little within even a year sample size. Just look at Quintana. It's not a good predictor of future success, and it's not the best stat within a small window.

However, those are all different arguments.

_________________

Trying to keep up at home here. Thanks for the edit sir.

It's not even a good descriptor of performance, because look at Quintana. Wins have him as a "losing" pitcher, tied for 44th in the league, but in reality he's one of the best in the league at getting people out and limiting run-scoring.