I can only imagine what you were actually thinking when you basically did the "Well, these six times are explained by X, Y, Z, A, B, and C but it isn't a pattern or a reflection on the actual player".

A #1 pitcher isn't getting given up on so easily by so many teams unless it is just horrible luck.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Sure, there are more variables in baseball, more noise, if you will, but let's pretend that the different courses are the different lineups and ballparks. Even in the same golf tournament, we've seen guys go out in the morning under great conditions and other guys tee off later in the day when some different weather has swept in. I've never heard anyone say, Tiger lacked "wind support". It's similar in that neither pitcher is actually competing directly against each other, they are facing two different lineups and neither are golfers competing directly as they are both actually going against the course.



I think that's a decent comparison, except the difference between two football defenses in the space of a game is much greater than two baseball offenses within a single game. You can watch a quarter of the '85 Bears defense and a quarter of the '15 Bears defense and you aren't going to have much doubt which one was better. In fact, it will be obvious that one is far superior. You can't tell the difference between the high-scoring Red Sox and the pathetic White Sox offenses in a single game or even a series, as last week's meeting clearly illustrates. And sure, you could make a case that Erik Kramer was a better quarterback than Dan Marino in 1995, but you'd look as silly as someone who kept insisting that Javy Vazquez was a better pitcher than Mark Buehrle.



The guy who pitches in Colorado or Texas is at a huge disadvantage vs. a guy who pitches in Oakland or Dodger Stadium when it comes to posting a low ERA. If you take Jon Lester and put him in a Rockies uniform, I have no doubt he is going to have a higher ERA. Are you saying that would mean he "got worse"? He'd be exactly the same guy and I would bet that his W/L record would be similar to what it has always been because his opposing pitchers would face the same conditions he is facing. The ERAs are more relative than the wins and losses.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

change the name of the Cy Young Award to the Mel Parnell Award

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

Weird coming from a guy that blindly accepts Pitcher W/L.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

There's nothing blind about it. Which more accurately decribes the relationship of Vazquez to Buehrle, their respective W/L records or the WAR that suggests Vazquez was better?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

_________________

I may have been drinking.

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That's why I would really use WHIP+ and ERA+ which take care of resolving those issues. For me, that takes care of 80% of a pitcher's makeup. Other things to consider are "clutchness" which I think absolutely exists, durability (you're no good to me if you are out 60 days every year with some injury), and stamina (for starting pitchers -- can you still be effective on pitch 100 or do you really drop off after pitch 80?)

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"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

Well, I don't really think WHIP is necessarily an important number for a starting pitcher. Buehrle is a good example of a guy who always allowed a relatively high amount of baserunners. Also, I've seen El Duque pitch around two batters in a row at least once. You've got to have confidence in yourself to load the bases on purpose. And then we can go back to the way Quintana handled Mauer just the other night. And putting him on is fine. As long as you make the pitches to the next guy.

And I think that's the missing link when a guy like JLN is running down his favored numbers. Those numbers are all evidence of what we call "stuff". The W/L record illustrates how you used that "stuff". There is a slim difference between Quintana and Arrieta. But when Arrieta is in a bases loaded jam with two out in the sixth inning, he's likely to strike a batter out. Quintana is likely to allow a gap double and the Sox lose 3-2. Quintana's numbers still look strong and his fans decry his "lack of run support".

Also, I don't believe in the concept of "pitching to the score". I don't think any pitcher wants to allow runs. But guys do pitch differently depending on what's happening in the game. It just depends on the person. Like a potential penalty stroke hanging over a golfer. How will he respond? When Danny Duffy or Shitty Gibson is mowing down your batters, how do you respond? Do you match him pitch for pitch? Or do you get tight and feel sorry for yourself and say, "poor me, I've got to be perfect"? I can tell you for sure that pitchers are being trained to do the latter.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

How stupid ....pages on is Javy better than Buehrle if your Saber shit gives you any reason to suggest this it and you are FUCKING WRONG...case closed

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

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Mark Buerhle is a better pitcher. Not because of WAR or W/L.

However, no one statistic...no matter which one it is...should be used as the end all be all. Traditional or advanced.

Look at the important 5 - 10 statistics.

ERA (ERA+)
WHIP
FIP
K/BB
OPS Against
etc

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

You're saying that Vazquez is better without even realizing it.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I've not compared them side by side. I will now.

And as I said, Buehrle is the better pitcher.

He leads ERA+ by a significant margin: 117 to 105.

Vazquez has a slightly better WHIP. Neither's is amazing.

FIP is hard to judge since one was primarily an AL pitcher and one was primarily an NL pitcher. So if we weight them to league, Buerhle wins that category as well.

Vazquez leads K/BB by a healthy margin.

Buerhle wins OPS Against when weighted based on AL vs NL.

Buerhle also wins in IP, though it is easier for a pitcher to go further in IP in AL due to pitch hitting never being a consideration.

Additionally, who said Vazquez had a higher WAR? And seriously, fuck fWAR anyways.

Buerhle has a career 59.2 bWAR (3.7 Wins per season). Vazquez is at 43.3 bWAR (3.1 Wins per season). [This is pitching WAR...it does not factor in at bats for either]

So statistics add up to show Buerhle was the better pitcher. Not by a ton. But by enough.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Buehrle and Vazquez are two of the oddest cases that come to mind when discussing pitchers over the past quarter century. Obviously, Vazquez waxed Buehrle if we're talking about god-given physical tools, but Buehrle's mental makeup was spectacular. Put Buehrle's head on Javy's body and you'd have one of the all time great pitchers in baseball history.

People root hard for Buehrle because he's like a Rudy figure. Just a great underdog story. He had the passion, the fire, and the will to win. Plus, he's country retarded, going around shootin things and what not. That carries a certain amount of charm. Also, he probably buys drinks.

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But if Buehrle had Javy's arm and tools, he probably wouldn't have been Buehrle. It's easy for guys like Mike North to talk about the effort he makes at shooting free throws and how if he was in Eddy "Curie"'s body he'd be the greatest center ever. But it doesn't really work that way. If most of us had Curry's body, we'd probably be as lazy as he was. Maybe not that bad, but you get the point. That's why Jordan was so special and so weird. Never does a guy that talented scrap that fucking hard.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Vazquez holds a marginal lead in fWAR. The difference between f and b WAR for pitchers is that bWAR is based on runs scored, which introduces the problems inherent with stats like ERA, "wins" and other non-defense-independent pitching stats. fWAR solves this issue by instead using FIP, which makes it more a measure of how good a pitcher was at limiting scoring via the direct avenues available to him. fWAR is more divorced from defense, and as such has been shown to be much better in its predictive capabilities, telling me that it is better at valuating happenings on the field than bWAR.

Also, there is a league-weighted version of FIP/xFIP, called FIP-/xFIP- (I have no idea why they chose - instead of +); Both players are solidly above average, but Vazquez leads Buehrle with a notch of 88/87 to Buehrle's 93/99 (Vazquez 12%/13% better than league average for his career, Buehrle 7%/1%).

For what it's worth, Vazquez's lead over Buehrle in SIERA (whatever the fuck that is) is even greater than the FIP/xFIP difference, 3.64 to 4.41.

(Upon further review, it appears that SIERA is the "next step" in fusing DIPS with things like ERA, and takes into account groundball and flyball rates--and their resultant influences on BABIP--to better explain the skill of a pitcher at getting batters out, and would in fact reward a groundball pitcher instead of punish them for lack of "sexy" strikeouts. It still looks to favor power pitchers, but power pitchers also tend to be some of the best in the game. And JORR, I don't know, because Maddux's SIERA numbers only begin in 2003, and are likely hugely inflated by the last few years of his career, though I'm guessing the 58 FIP- Maddux of 1997 would also be sporting a gaudy SIERA figure)

When asked what Curry could do to be a better rebounder....

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

Bump. Basically a no doubter now.

Buehrle was light years better than Vasquez.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Can vouch for this at Neutral Zone in Westmont.

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"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

That may have hit the top of the wall.

edit- Nah, just the lip of the yellow.

Nice job by Eaton and Abreu bringing them in.

Starting the All Star Game.

Clearly he'll mow down all the Cubs.

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Hope he beans every one.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'd prefer he sits out the ASG personally. Its his fifth one, I dont see the point anymore.