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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:49 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Are you saying that these police killings of black people are a result of socio-economic status rather than race? You make several points, but I'm not sure what your conclusion is.


I'm saying that the frequency at which certain racial groups are the victims of homicide committed by police in the US is not necessarily indicative of a systematic "targeting" of any one group because of the disparity between their homicide-by-cop rate and their representation in population demos. Such a view ignores possible (innocuous) explanations for increased police interaction, and resultant death from interactions gone awry because our police forces are increasingly militarized and trigger happy.

I'd be interested to know of other factors that may correlate with being on the receiving end of homicidal violence from police, like income, education level, family structure, etc. Who knows? There are millions of explanations, and we are still struggling to get proper data from police forces lacking oversight.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:28 am 
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FrankDrebin wrote:
Problem is the lack of jobs available to blacks; since some suffer from a poor educational system, they are unable to obtain skilled jobs and instead are placed in labor or unskilled positions. Those jobs are being eliminated by technological advances and, due to the fault of companies, the influx of illegal immigrants into the country. Without jobs and education, many turn to welfare or to crime. The improvement of the educational system and giving jobs back to American citizens will begin to lessen unemployment in the black community, therefore lessening crime and rebuilding the family structure that many young men need to avoid crime and gangs.


Crime is actually gone down across the board the past 10 years in black communities and throughout America. You wouldn't know this if you watch the news.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:29 am 
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Nas wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Nas wrote:

Treat him like everyone else at the table and give him a plate.


What if we don't have a plate to give? How does bob's sister feel about bob getting food? What if bob's mom is still hungry after she gives him a plate? What if bob drops all his food on the floor or the dog eats it? What if you are eating broccoli and bob doesn't like broccoli?

I like bob and I feel for bob. I don't want bob to be hungry. I might even give bob a plate occasionally. I'm sad for bob. But I can't or am not willing to sacrifice everything I have for bob. I'd be willing to bet nobody else here is either.

Bob needs to have opportunities, luck, talent, and intelligence. Everybody at that table is different also.


Well if you have created a system that keeps Bob dependent on you and others for a decent meal then Bob will never be able to provide for himself or his family. In a perfect world Bob would have exactly the same educational opportunities and employment opportunities as everyone else at the table. At that point Bob's work and effort would determine what's on his plate.


Bob should quit whining. He would be well served to be smarter, and work harder.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:37 am 
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The thing about eating the Black and White cookie, Elaine, is you want to get some black and some white in each bite. Nothing mixes better than vanilla and chocolate And yet somehow racial harmony eludes us. If people would only look to the cookie all our problems would be solved.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:41 am 
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FrankDrebin wrote:
Problem is the lack of jobs available to blacks; since some suffer from a poor educational system, they are unable to obtain skilled jobs and instead are placed in labor or unskilled positions. Those jobs are being eliminated by technological advances and, due to the fault of companies, the influx of illegal immigrants into the country. Without jobs and education, many turn to welfare or to crime. The improvement of the educational system and giving jobs back to American citizens will begin to lessen unemployment in the black community, therefore lessening crime and rebuilding the family structure that many young men need to avoid crime and gangs.


Adding to your point, "crony capitalism" creates a barrier to entry for many jobs. Whether it's the taxi industry or even hair-cutting, there are ridiculous regulations and expensive certifications put in place to protect the existing providers of those services and keep out competition (under the guise of protecting the customers).

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:49 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Another shooting in Tennessee with the same motivation. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-tennes ... as-ambush/

Again, don't think that the perception that the police are killing only black people is good for anyone.

It would be incredibly naive to think these police shootings are ONLY a response to police killing people. There are MANY reasons that this is happening. BLM is not a problem.



Here's a good article on the subject, surprisingly from a conservative source:

http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/201 ... yesterday/

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:09 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Another shooting in Tennessee with the same motivation. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-tennes ... as-ambush/

Again, don't think that the perception that the police are killing only black people is good for anyone.

It would be incredibly naive to think these police shootings are ONLY a response to police killing people. There are MANY reasons that this is happening. BLM is not a problem.



Here's a good article on the subject, surprisingly from a conservative source:

http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/201 ... yesterday/


That was a good read.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:14 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Are you saying that these police killings of black people are a result of socio-economic status rather than race? You make several points, but I'm not sure what your conclusion is.


I'm saying that the frequency at which certain racial groups are the victims of homicide committed by police in the US is not necessarily indicative of a systematic "targeting" of any one group because of the disparity between their homicide-by-cop rate and their representation in population demos. Such a view ignores possible (innocuous) explanations for increased police interaction, and resultant death from interactions gone awry because our police forces are increasingly militarized and trigger happy.

I'd be interested to know of other factors that may correlate with being on the receiving end of homicidal violence from police, like income, education level, family structure, etc. Who knows? There are millions of explanations, and we are still struggling to get proper data from police forces lacking oversight.
I've never seen statistics that show that it is more on economic lines than it is on racial lines though. Now, there is some correlation there.

Just look at the chart that was posted earlier. The white killings by cops goes down, the hispanic one stays pretty constant, and the black on goes way up based on their population percentage.

Right now, the best answer anyone has provided is that cops kill black people at a level 2 or 3 times higher than the general population when you normalize for the percentage by race. That means that a black person is around 6 times more likely to be killed in his lifetime by a cop than a white person. That is a staggering number that you can't really just discount like you are.

Now, if you can find an article that gives a better explanation which you seem pretty desperate to find then I'd love to read it. Until then, you can't just throw 500 questions out and think you are somehow refuting what seems to be pretty clear evidence here that black people are targeted by the police in substantially higher numbers than other races including hispanics who should at least somewhat follow the same economic conditions.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:48 am 
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Police brutality is also tacitly endorsed by those that refuse to sanction and whistleblow on it. There may be 5% to 10% that are actually "dirty", but the refusal to sanction or whistleblow on the part of the non dirty cops creates the perception that the numbers are much greater. That was one of the problems with Laquan McDonald. There wouldn't be a need for video cameras if the other officers had simply gave up the dirty cop in the beginning. Thus it is not only the action of the dirty cop, but the corresponding non reaction of others in law enforcement which lead to the tensions.

Blacks and i'll generalize here, have grown up with an overriding perception that the police make and not simply enforce laws. This belief has been borne out of a history of evidence that strongly supports it. It has also been enhanced by a current culture which ignores police abuses until drastic action is taken. It shouldn't take protests marches and corresponding violence to bring attention to police misconduct. Non participating police officers are more aware of police misconduct than they are the conduct of the criminals that they arrest. Their negligence with respect to acting against misconduct makes them almost as complicit as the perpetrating officers themselves.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:07 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
If EVERYBODY recognized the same problem, then it stands to reason that said problem would no longer exist. Bob would no longer be hungry.


Some people aren't going to give a shit about bob, some people resent bob, and we know nothing about bob. It seems to me you don't have a solution and that is fine.


You know Bob isn't real, right?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:15 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Another shooting in Tennessee with the same motivation. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-tennes ... as-ambush/

Again, don't think that the perception that the police are killing only black people is good for anyone.

It would be incredibly naive to think these police shootings are ONLY a response to police killing people. There are MANY reasons that this is happening. BLM is not a problem.



Here's a good article on the subject, surprisingly from a conservative source:

http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/201 ... yesterday/


That was a surprisingly good read.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:24 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
FF, what you said is very similar to what Gingrich said this morning on the news. People have to stop dancing around the issues if we are to take a step past the current climate. I was actually surprised a career republican politician went straight to the heart of the matter.


Did Gingrich also discuss how HIS Congress & their "Contract With America" not only danced around the issues, but overwhelmingly laid the blame on the Black segment of the population now over 20 years ago, but now he wants to help? How HIS Congress helped deepen (& still gets elected exploiting) many of the issues he says he wants to get to the heart of now?

I seriously doubt that he has any "new" ideas that are different from his old ones. But it's telling that he is now attempting to cynically wrap himself in the cloth of "compassionate conservativism". As if that wasn't a fraud 16-22 years ago.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:29 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Another shooting in Tennessee with the same motivation. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-tennes ... as-ambush/

Again, don't think that the perception that the police are killing only black people is good for anyone.

It would be incredibly naive to think these police shootings are ONLY a response to police killing people. There are MANY reasons that this is happening. BLM is not a problem.



Here's a good article on the subject, surprisingly from a conservative source:

http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/201 ... yesterday/

Compare to the esteemed Wall Street Journal Editorial page this morning:

Quote:
It was only two years ago, in the summer of 2014, that the deaths of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., and Eric Garner in New York’s Staten Island made it clear that tensions were rising dangerously between the police and the urban neighborhoods they patrol. It hasn’t stopped.

That December, two policemen were assassinated on a Brooklyn street. The following April brought the Baltimore riot and the Freddie Gray case.

Now Dallas.

Mayor Mike Rawlings said a lone shooter killed five Dallas police officers and wounded seven others in an ambush attack carried out during a march, which was protesting the shootings this week of black men in Louisiana and Missouri by police offers.

Dallas Police Chief David Brown described the words of one suspect, Micah Xavier Johnson, before he was blown up by a police robot bomb: “The suspect said he was upset about Black Lives Matter. He said he was upset about the recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people. The suspect stated he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.”

***
America today has the feel of a country flirting dangerously with the 1960s. Back then, disruptions to civic and social order overwhelmed America’s political leadership, which found itself constantly behind the curve of events, on defense. We aren’t there yet, but a familiar deficit of political leadership exists today as social tensions rise.

In the 1960s and ’70s, various individuals and groups said that police brutality against black people justified a violent response. They included Malcolm X, the Black Panthers, the Weather Underground and the Black Liberation Army. The Black Panthers famously coined the phrase, “off the pigs.”

Violence followed. Some of it consisted of ambush attacks or shootouts between police and group members. One of the most dramatic events, in January 1972, was the late-night gunning down of two New York City cops by three assailants on Manhattan’s lower east side.

Nothing then, however, reached the scale of the sniper attack in Dallas this week. Dallas represents an historically unprecedented escalation of anti-police violence.

President Obama entered office with the belief that significant and persistent racial inequities existed in American life, a matter he has raised frequently in public appearances. He did so again Thursday while in Warsaw, after the shootings in Louisiana and Missouri.

He said the two deaths “are symptomatic of a broader set of racial disparities that exist in our criminal justice system.” He then cited several statistical studies “to try to put in context why emotions are so raw around these issues.” But he added, “To be concerned about these issues is not to be against law enforcement.”

We don’t gainsay Mr. Obama’s sincerity, and racial disparities exist, but one may ask: Why on Friday, after the Dallas murders, did the city’s police chief, who is black, wonder out loud about support for people on law-enforcement’s front line? “We don’t feel much support most days,” Chief Brown said. “Let’s not make today most days.”

If Chief Brown and many like him in American law enforcement don’t think they get much support, it is because they don’t—until after the cops are dead. Then, as always, come the official condolences.

Instead, what people hear most of the time from groups like Black Lives Matter or Al Sharpton is inflammatory rhetoric that distorts reality and indiscriminately demonizes the police. Showing some awareness Thursday of this lopsided public perception, Mr. Obama said it is possible to express support for the police “while also saying there are problems across our criminal justice system.” Mr. Obama’s attempt at balance might have more resonance if once he said Black Lives Matter’s view of American justice is wrong.

Not least among the current distortions is the implication that the U.S. is in the grip of a new era of Jim Crow racialism. Not much noted over the last two, disturbing years, including by Mr. Obama, is that the U.S. court system has been dealing systematically with charges of violent bias brought by prosecutors against law officers. Nor has it been noted how racially integrated the participants are.

In Baltimore three of the six officers indicted for the death in custody of Freddie Gray were black. Since May two of those officers—one black, the other white—were acquitted in a bench trial before a circuit judge, who is black. After the Garner episode on Staten Island, a black man drove from Maryland to Brooklyn and shot NYPD officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu.

In suburban Minneapolis this week, the officer identified as shooting Philando Castile is named Jeronimo Yanez, who is apparently Hispanic. But here is Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton’s contribution to cooling the racial flames: “Would this have happened if the driver were white, if the passengers were white? I don’t think it would have.” That is a profile in political fox-holing.

***
Barack Obama came into the American Presidency as a self-declared unifier. As he departs eight years later, the country is polarized, politically and racially. This surely is not the legacy Mr. Obama intended.

White cops versus black people is a narrative that has reached the end of whatever use it may have had. It offers no exit for anyone. The moment has arrived for the country’s political leadership to say so clearly. The U.S. has been here before. It can get worse.


Whooooooooooooosh. Bad.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:03 pm 
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From a Dallas sports anchor.

http://www.wfaa.com/sports/dale-hansen/ ... /268208869


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:29 pm 
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Peoria Matt wrote:


Heard this guy before on a few different topics. Always interesting stances and sobering observations.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:56 pm 
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http://thefreethoughtproject.com/breaki ... o-castile/

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:23 pm 
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Nas wrote:
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/breaking-dispatch-audio-philando-castile/

That was clickbait.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:31 pm 
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formerlyknownas wrote:
Nas wrote:
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/breaking-dispatch-audio-philando-castile/

That was clickbait.


Free Thought is usually solid. They're saying that the cop pulled him over because he believed he fit the description of a robber. That could explain why the cop was on edge and why he told them he pulled them over for a taillight.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:40 pm 
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Nas wrote:
formerlyknownas wrote:
Nas wrote:
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/breaking-dispatch-audio-philando-castile/

That was clickbait.


Free Thought is usually solid. They're saying that the cop pulled him over because he believed he fit the description of a robber. That could explain why the cop was on edge and why he told them he pulled them over for a taillight.

My bad, Nas. I was just coming back here to edit what I said. Yeah, I can appreciate your summary, but the title of that article--yikes. That's what I meant.

I think the most interesting thing about the article is that it tries to reverse the blame the victim/"the victim was a slimeball" narrative.

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This registered sex offender I regularly converse with on the internet just said something really stupid


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:38 pm 
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That's what "great" about the thread title, it can go either way.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:52 pm 
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That is a great article. It confirms my comments about the social compact breaking down. People have to believe in the system, that it is fair and enforced equally among the population. The idea of the one percent, and politicians dividing us along various demographic lines, the victimization culture, etc all lead to the belief that society is not fair.

Our system cannot guarantee equality of outcomes, but it must offer somewhat equality of opportunity. It does not. Education is the biggest equalizer. We fail at that basic need.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:59 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
That is a great article. It confirms my comments about the social compact breaking down. People have to believe in the system, that it is fair and enforced equally among the population. The idea of the one percent, and politicians dividing us along various demographic lines, the victimization culture, etc all lead to the belief that society is not fair.

Our system cannot guarantee equality of outcomes, but it must offer somewhat equality of opportunity. It does not. Education is the biggest equalizer. We fail at that basic need.


The problem is that education has served as the biggest perpetuator of inequality. The three tiered education system is destroying rducation. The inequality of which you speak starts with our educational system. The first experience with unequalness typically occurs within our educational system.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:02 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
denisdman wrote:
That is a great article. It confirms my comments about the social compact breaking down. People have to believe in the system, that it is fair and enforced equally among the population. The idea of the one percent, and politicians dividing us along various demographic lines, the victimization culture, etc all lead to the belief that society is not fair.

Our system cannot guarantee equality of outcomes, but it must offer somewhat equality of opportunity. It does not. Education is the biggest equalizer. We fail at that basic need.


The problem is that education has served as the biggest perpetuator of inequality. The three tiered education system is destroying rducation. The inequality of which you speak starts with our educational system. The first experience with unequalness typically occurs within our educational system.

It's more often a system of social reproduction rather than a system of social production.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:15 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:


Heard this guy before on a few different topics. Always interesting stances and sobering observations.

He says that "we lost (our common decency) a long time ago." I wonder if that is true--or if this is just another example of people looking to an imagined past utopia.

For the record, I think it is probably true--the feelings of community, decency, and shared purpose seem less strong than when I was a kid--but I always worry about myself harkening back to some imaginary good old days . . . a cultural hallmark in America for at least 150 years and in the West overall for even longer.

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This registered sex offender I regularly converse with on the internet just said something really stupid


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:17 pm 
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Chus wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Image



The split labor-market theory. It's coming back into vogue among some left-leaning labor historians.

Them cookies are delicious, by the way.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:06 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
Education is the biggest equalizer.

In theory, but if you wind up in a crappy school district, you're up against a lot. Conversely, you have kids who are prepped for exams to get into preschool.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:11 pm 
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KDdidit wrote:
That's what "great" about the thread title, it can go either way.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:05 am 
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St. Paul protests live stream

http://livestream.com/accounts/12767816/events/5792844

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:24 am 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
The arrest numbers reflect who is committing the crimes.

No they reflect who gets arrested for committing crimes.

There are guys in our industry that break the law right up their nose every day. They dont get arrested. The guy smoking crack on 47th and King does get arrested.

Both committed crimes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:30 am 
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denisdman wrote:
That is a great article. It confirms my comments about the social compact breaking down. People have to believe in the system, that it is fair and enforced equally among the population. The idea of the one percent, and politicians dividing us along various demographic lines, the victimization culture, etc all lead to the belief that society is not fair.

Our system cannot guarantee equality of outcomes, but it must offer somewhat equality of opportunity. It does not. Education is the biggest equalizer. We fail at that basic need.


Family is the biggest equalizer.

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