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Who had the better career?
Duncan 50%  50%  [ 6 ]
Kobe 50%  50%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 12
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long time guy
 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:01 am 
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Nas wrote:
Duncan isn't even the best center of his ERA. Kobe is clearly the best SG of his era.


Clearly the best? Kobe was thoroughly outplayed during the majority of elite 2 guard matchups that he encountered. The immortal Bonzi Wells once made a name solely by getting up with Kobe. Duncan outplayed every pf that he ever encountered in the pkayoffs. He also elevated teams which is something Kobe rarely did. Needed superior surrounding talent in order to win.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:02 am 
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Ok, lets end this.

This is the basketball reference position estimates.

Pay special attention to the Columns that start with 61% and then 39%. That is the estimate of how much time was spent at PF and how much time was spent at center. Notice the clear trend as soon as Robinson is gone. By the end of his career. it was 70% C, 30% PF.

Time to brush up more on that NBA history long time guy!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html#all_advanced
Code:
      Position Estimate   +/- Per 100 Poss.   Turnovers   Fouls Committed   Misc.
Season   Age   Tm   Lg   Pos   G   MP   PG%   SG%   SF%   PF%   C%   OnCourt   On-Off   BadPass   LostBall   Other   Shoot   Block   Offens   Take   PGA   SfDrawn   And1   Blkd
2000-01   24   SAS   NBA   PF   82   3174            61%   39%   +11.4   +12.5   82   70   90   142      35      554   274   64   128
2001-02   25   SAS   NBA   PF   82   3329            60%   40%   +8.7   +9.4   119   82   62   96      35      684   304   77   127
2002-03   26   SAS   NBA   PF   81   3181            56%   44%   +9.1   +14.7   102   82   64   132      36      709   263   84   133
2003-04   27   SAS   NBA   PF   69   2527            57%   43%   +11.2   +8.5   70   74   39   80      23      475   268   67   98
2004-05   28   SAS   NBA   PF   66   2203            47%   53%   +16.9   +17.8   44   47   36   93      18      404   200   64   93
2005-06   29   SAS   NBA   PF   80   2784            71%   29%   +9.4   +4.2   59   72   67   118      31      571   244   84   81
2006-07   30   SAS   NBA   C   80   2726            29%   71%   +13.8   +14.5   70   81   73   119      23      621   275   78   125
2007-08   31   SAS   NBA   C   78   2651            6%   94%   +8.2   +8.4   68   69   41   108      21      506   226   62   134
2008-09   32   SAS   NBA   C   75   2524               100%   +4.3   +1.0   59   66   40   97      17      600   238   56   96
2009-10   33   SAS   NBA   C   78   2438               100%   +7.6   +4.8   61   52   27   85      11      541   189   50   82
2010-11   34   SAS   NBA   C   76   2156               100%   +9.9   +7.5   56   26   40   70      15      459   118   21   50
2011-12   35   SAS   NBA   C   58   1634               100%   +8.8   +1.8   47   26   24   50      17      292   123   37   76
2012-13   36   SAS   NBA   C   69   2078               100%   +10.5   +7.7   68   54   25   80      14   4   403   142   39   96
2013-14   37   SAS   NBA   C   74   2158               100%   +6.7   -3.2   76   50   33   78   1   15   4   485   160   31   87
2014-15   38   SAS   NBA   PF   77   2227            34%   66%   +6.8   +0.6   54   36   41   86   3   26   3   513   146   29   66
2015-16   39   SAS   NBA   C   61   1536            1%   99%   +14.1   +4.2   44   25   21   70   1   11   4   354   65   21   38
Career         NBA      1186   39326            30%   70%   +9.8   +7.7   1079   912   723   1504   5   348   15   8171   3235   864   1510

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:06 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Duncan isn't even the best center of his ERA. Kobe is clearly the best SG of his era.


Clearly the best? Kobe was thoroughly outplayed during the majority of elite 2 guard matchups that he encountered. The immortal Bonzi Wells once made a name solely by getting up with Kobe. Duncan outplayed every pf that he ever encountered in the pkayoffs. He also elevated teams which is something Kobe rarely did. Needed superior surrounding talent in order to win.


What? Kobe was outplayed by the majority of elite 2 guards? You're insane. Most of the SG's couldn't play defense and Kobe could dominate on both ends of the court. You're COMPLETELY wrong. Kobe is CLEARLY the best SG of his era.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:06 am 
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And just to pile on long time guy, his playoff percentages are 77% C and 23% PF.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:21 am 
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Who cares about the position? Duncan is the best big man of his era and one of the five best players to ever play the game.

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RFDC
 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:48 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
one of the five best players to ever play the game.

He is no doubt the best big man of his era, but he is not one of the 5 best players to ever play the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:57 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Who cares about the position? Duncan is the best big man of his era and one of the five best players to ever play the game.

I'll take power forward LeBron over him.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:11 pm 
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I could keep the idiotic pf/c debate going but I won't because it's stupid. Tim Duncan from about 97 til about 07 was the best player in the league.

I will say that your advanced stat stuff is dumb, since they have Duncan playing a 100% of the time at center. They also have Splitter playing a vast majority of time at Center too. How is that possible if both are starting. It's not really about being right, but watch the games sometimes. It helps with the "analysis".

Brick you couldn't probably tell who any of the PFs were doing Duncan's Era at Center. You would have to go back and start crunching numbers. Watch the games and that will tell you what you need to know. You would be able to cite specifics. Never can.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:18 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Who cares about the position? Duncan is the best big man of his era and one of the five best players to ever play the game.

I'll take power forward LeBron over him.

That's fine. You would win less titles.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:21 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
one of the five best players to ever play the game.

He is no doubt the best big man of his era, but he is not one of the 5 best players to ever play the game.


Shaq was better

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:22 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
I could keep the idiotic pf/c debate going but I won't because it's stupid. Tim Duncan from about 97 til about 07 was the best player in the league.

I will say that your advanced stat stuff is dumb, since they have Duncan playing a 100% of the time at center. They also have Splitter playing a vast majority of time at Center too. How is that possible if both are starting. It's not really about being right, but watch the games sometimes. It helps with the "analysis".

Brick you couldn't probably tell who any of the PFs were doing Duncan's Era at Center. You would have to go back and start crunching numbers. Watch the games and that will tell you what you need to know. You would be able to cite specifics. Never can.
You can't keep on falling back to "I know this because I watch". I've cited his coach, basketball reference, and you've even admitted he was a center for a majority of his career.

But hey, you can name Jermaine O'Neal and Kevin Garnett and I can't so I guess we should all just trust you as the basketball bible.

Another post with so little content and so much condescension. But hey, maybe saying you are done with the discussion one last time will be what is really needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:23 pm 
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Nas wrote:
RFDC wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
one of the five best players to ever play the game.

He is no doubt the best big man of his era, but he is not one of the 5 best players to ever play the game.


Shaq was better

Lol

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:24 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
I could keep the idiotic pf/c debate going but I won't because it's stupid. Tim Duncan from about 97 til about 07 was the best player in the league.

I will say that your advanced stat stuff is dumb, since they have Duncan playing a 100% of the time at center. They also have Splitter playing a vast majority of time at Center too. How is that possible if both are starting. It's not really about being right, but watch the games sometimes. It helps with the "analysis".

Brick you couldn't probably tell who any of the PFs were doing Duncan's Era at Center. You would have to go back and start crunching numbers. Watch the games and that will tell you what you need to know. You would be able to cite specifics. Never can.


No he wasn't

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RFDC
 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:25 pm 
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Why does position matter? PF or C the dude was one of the greatest to ever play.

Brick is arguing so hard you would think this involved someone from Purdue.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:27 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
Why does position matter? PF or C the dude was one of the greatest to ever play.

Brick is arguing so hard you would think this involved someone from Purdue.
Well people always say "Best PF of all time" with Duncan.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:28 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Why does position matter? PF or C the dude was one of the greatest to ever play.

Brick is arguing so hard you would think this involved someone from Purdue.
Well people always say "Best PF of all time" with Duncan.

ok... so...

How many games or % of games would he needed to play at that position for you to be ok with him being called that?

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:29 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
long time guy wrote:
I could keep the idiotic pf/c debate going but I won't because it's stupid. Tim Duncan from about 97 til about 07 was the best player in the league.

I will say that your advanced stat stuff is dumb, since they have Duncan playing a 100% of the time at center. They also have Splitter playing a vast majority of time at Center too. How is that possible if both are starting. It's not really about being right, but watch the games sometimes. It helps with the "analysis".

Brick you couldn't probably tell who any of the PFs were doing Duncan's Era at Center. You would have to go back and start crunching numbers. Watch the games and that will tell you what you need to know. You would be able to cite specifics. Never can.
You can't keep on falling back to "I know this because I watch". I've cited his coach, basketball reference, and you've even admitted he was a center for a majority of his career.

But hey, you can name Jermaine O'Neal and Kevin Garnett and I can't so I guess we should all just trust you as the basketball bible.

Another post with so little content and so much condescension. But hey, maybe saying you are done with the discussion one last time will be what is really needed.


The best content that I could provide was actual players that he played with, plus a time line of when he actually "switched" to Center. You ignored it because as usual you prefer to cite your own "facts".

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:29 pm 
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:lol:

Only Rick would would take exception to someone being labeled the best PF of all time instead of the best PF of all time who also played Center.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:31 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Only Rick would would take exception to someone being labeled the best PF of all time instead of the best PF of all time who also played Center.
But he was mostly a center.

But if it doesn't matter what position he played then lets just put all big men together and see who we think is the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:33 pm 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
I could keep the idiotic pf/c debate going but I won't because it's stupid. Tim Duncan from about 97 til about 07 was the best player in the league.

I will say that your advanced stat stuff is dumb, since they have Duncan playing a 100% of the time at center. They also have Splitter playing a vast majority of time at Center too. How is that possible if both are starting. It's not really about being right, but watch the games sometimes. It helps with the "analysis".

Brick you couldn't probably tell who any of the PFs were doing Duncan's Era at Center. You would have to go back and start crunching numbers. Watch the games and that will tell you what you need to know. You would be able to cite specifics. Never can.


No he wasn't



Which players prior to 05 did he play with that were top 05 at their position? Which players prior to 05 were top 10 at their position? On the Spurs. I believed that they'd amassed 3 rings by that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:33 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Only Rick would would take exception to someone being labeled the best PF of all time instead of the best PF of all time who also played Center.
But he was mostly a center.

But if it doesn't matter what position he played then lets just put all big men together and see who we think is the best.

Duncan.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
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FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Only Rick would would take exception to someone being labeled the best PF of all time instead of the best PF of all time who also played Center.


He was a great player but he's about the 5th or 6th greatest center ever.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:36 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Why does position matter? PF or C the dude was one of the greatest to ever play.

Brick is arguing so hard you would think this involved someone from Purdue.
Well people always say "Best PF of all time" with Duncan.

ok... so...

How many games or % of games would he needed to play at that position for you to be ok with him being called that?
At a minimum a majority though to me Duncan always looked and played more like a "center" than a "power forward" based on what they look like to me.

I'd say Hakeem was closer to an actual power forward than Duncan even though Hakeem was a center too.

Duncan was a center because he played it until Robinson retired while they basically played with two centers and then it took a while for it to be obvious that he wasn't really a power forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:36 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Only Rick would would take exception to someone being labeled the best PF of all time instead of the best PF of all time who also played Center.
But he was mostly a center.

But if it doesn't matter what position he played then lets just put all big men together and see who we think is the best.


Even if you say he was a Center, which I don't, he is probably the 3rd best. Behind Wilt and Kareem.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:41 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Why does position matter? PF or C the dude was one of the greatest to ever play.

Brick is arguing so hard you would think this involved someone from Purdue.
Well people always say "Best PF of all time" with Duncan.

ok... so...

How many games or % of games would he needed to play at that position for you to be ok with him being called that?
At a minimum a majority though to me Duncan always looked and played more like a "center" than a "power forward" based on what they look like to me.

I'd say Hakeem was closer to an actual power forward than Duncan even though Hakeem was a center too.

Duncan was a center because he played it until Robinson retired while they basically played with two centers and then it took a while for it to be obvious that he wasn't really a power forward.


Your position is defined by whom you guard. Hakeem always guarded centers. It doesn't matter what your skill set is. Bill Laimbeer was nothing more than a 3 point shooting center, yet he always guarded Centers. He was thus a 3 point shooting center.

Tim Duncan in the early years always guarded the power forwards. If he was the Center then who were the power forwards during all of those years? Rasho wasn't a power forward. Neither was Elson or Splitter.

He did play some Center, but if he isn't guarding Shaq or Yao or Dwight Howard when he was good then he wasn't a Center.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:45 pm 
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Position is semantics. Not to go all Bernsie, but you could probably legitimately make a case that there are at least 10 different positions in today's game.

Ron Harper was listed as a point guard during the second threepeat. Would we categorize him as such?

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:47 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
I could keep the idiotic pf/c debate going but I won't because it's stupid. Tim Duncan from about 97 til about 07 was the best player in the league.

I will say that your advanced stat stuff is dumb, since they have Duncan playing a 100% of the time at center. They also have Splitter playing a vast majority of time at Center too. How is that possible if both are starting. It's not really about being right, but watch the games sometimes. It helps with the "analysis".

Brick you couldn't probably tell who any of the PFs were doing Duncan's Era at Center. You would have to go back and start crunching numbers. Watch the games and that will tell you what you need to know. You would be able to cite specifics. Never can.


No he wasn't



Which players prior to 05 did he play with that were top 05 at their position? Which players prior to 05 were top 10 at their position? On the Spurs. I believed that they'd amassed 3 rings by that point.


David Robinson was still a great player when Duncan came into the league. Duncan wasn't even the best big man. Hakeem was still playing and Shaq was dominating. Jordan was in the league than too. I could argue that Duncan was never the best player in the league. His consistency is what makes him great.

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:48 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Only Rick would would take exception to someone being labeled the best PF of all time instead of the best PF of all time who also played Center.
But he was mostly a center.

But if it doesn't matter what position he played then lets just put all big men together and see who we think is the best.


Even if you say he was a Center, which I don't, he is probably the 3rd best. Behind Wilt and Kareem.


Russell and Shaq too.

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 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:48 pm 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
:lol:

Only Rick would would take exception to someone being labeled the best PF of all time instead of the best PF of all time who also played Center.
But he was mostly a center.

But if it doesn't matter what position he played then lets just put all big men together and see who we think is the best.


Even if you say he was a Center, which I don't, he is probably the 3rd best. Behind Wilt and Kareem.


Russell and Shaq too.

Hakeem.

No way Duncan is the 3rd best center.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Duncan or Kobe?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:51 pm 
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Nas wrote:
I could argue that Duncan was never the best player in the league.

It would be the worst sports argument you would ever make, which is really saying something. He was as dominant from '03-'05 as any player who has ever played. Was that game 7 against Detroit in the Finals just his consistency being great?

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