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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:58 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
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Black Lives Matter is a unique contribution that goes beyond extrajudicial killings of Black people by police and vigilantes. It goes beyond the narrow nationalism that can be prevalent within some Black communities, which merely call on Black people to love Black, live Black and buy Black, keeping straight cis Black men in the front of the movement while our sisters, queer and trans and disabled folk take up roles in the background or not at all. Black Lives Matter affirms the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, Black-undocumented folks, folks with records, women and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. It centers those that have been marginalized within Black liberation movements. It is a tactic to (re)build the Black liberation movement.


To clarify what BLM is per their website.


That literally sounds super homo.


I hate to dismiss anything out of hand but use of the term "cis" usually results in it


I think the succeeding paragraphs from the BLM manifesto are more revealing than the one quoted above:

Quote:
When we say Black Lives Matter, we are talking about the ways in which Black people are deprived of our basic human rights and dignity. It is an acknowledgement Black poverty and genocide is state violence. It is an acknowledgment that 1 million Black people are locked in cages in this country–one half of all people in prisons or jails–is an act of state violence. It is an acknowledgment that Black women continue to bear the burden of a relentless assault on our children and our families and that assault is an act of state violence. Black queer and trans folks bearing a unique burden in a hetero-patriarchal society that disposes of us like garbage and simultaneously fetishizes us and profits off of us is state violence; the fact that 500,000 Black people in the US are undocumented immigrants and relegated to the shadows is state violence;.the fact that Black girls are used as negotiating chips during times of conflict and war is state violence; Black folks living with disabilities and different abilities bear the burden of state-sponsored Darwinian experiments that attempt to squeeze us into boxes of normality defined by White supremacy is state violence. And the fact is that the lives of Black people—not ALL people—exist within these conditions is consequence of state violence.

#BlackLivesMatter doesn’t mean your life isn’t important–it means that Black lives, which are seen as without value within White supremacy, are important to your liberation. Given the disproportionate impact state violence has on Black lives, we understand that when Black people in this country get free, the benefits will be wide reaching and transformative for society as a whole. When we are able to end hyper-criminalization and sexualization of Black people and end the poverty, control, and surveillance of Black people, every single person in this world has a better shot at getting and staying free. When Black people get free, everybody gets free. This is why we call on Black people and our allies to take up the call that Black lives matter. We’re not saying Black lives are more important than other lives, or that other lives are not criminalized and oppressed in various ways. We remain in active solidarity with all oppressed people who are fighting for their liberation and we know that our destinies are intertwined.

And, to keep it real–it is appropriate and necessary to have strategy and action centered around Blackness without other non-Black communities of color, or White folks for that matter, needing to find a place and a way to center themselves within it. It is appropriate and necessary for us to acknowledge the critical role that Black lives and struggles for Black liberation have played in inspiring and anchoring, through practice and theory, social movements for the liberation of all people. The women’s movement, the Chicano liberation movement, queer movements, and many more have adopted the strategies, tactics and theory of the Black liberation movement. And if we are committed to a world where all lives matter, we are called to support the very movement that inspired and activated so many more. That means supporting and acknowledging Black lives.


They got an A in sociology class. Now what's the next step?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:00 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The practical solution is to bring to justice cops who wrongly kill suspects, many of whom are black.


What is justice?

If the suspect is fighting or fleeing how does that impact "justice"? And there is not video footage or only partial footage in many cases. What does that mean for justice?
You can't just play 500 questions as a response. What I said was pretty straight forward.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:01 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
I hate to dismiss anything out of hand but use of the term "cis" usually results in it


This is an excellent policy.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:05 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Coates favors massive federal investment in impoverished black neighborhoods as a form of reparations for slavery.


Slavery happened more than 150 years ago now, and the Civil War was blood reparations. Should we also pay reparations to the Chinese for racist immigration policies or to the Cubans for the Bay of Pigs?

It's a terrible slippery slope.

Also, Coates never specifies what he means by reparations. What exactly? A check from who? Should we separate the black tax payer money from the white? And why should people born in the last say the last 40 years pay for Jim Crow or slavery?

Affirmative action was reparations. Black history month and cultural sensitivity training are reparations.

Reparations for Coates seem to be a vague an unattainable goal of making him feel better for past slights and crimes.

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For instance they were never taught that Columbus was a slave owner.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:07 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The practical solution is to bring to justice cops who wrongly kill suspects, many of whom are black.


What is justice?

If the suspect is fighting or fleeing how does that impact "justice"? And there is not video footage or only partial footage in many cases. What does that mean for justice?
You can't just play 500 questions as a response. What I said was pretty straight forward.


It certainly is not straight forward. Justice is not a clearly defined term. Certainly not in the case of an angry crowd chanting it.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

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For instance they were never taught that Columbus was a slave owner.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:14 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
It certainly is not straight forward. Justice is not a clearly defined term. Certainly not in the case of an angry crowd chanting it.
For a specific case justice can vary but we have years of evidence that at least in some cases justice is not served when a police officer kills a black man.

Name the last time a police officer was convicted for something and served more than 5 years for killing a black man.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:54 pm 
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This will all work itself out in the next few decades when everyone is of mixed race, just as we have seen it happen with mixed ethnicity.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:04 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
This will all work itself out in the next few decades when everyone is of mixed race, just as we have seen it happen with mixed ethnicity.


Not much of a history buff huh?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:07 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
His fix society idea is beyond vague, and the idea that the entire system is rigged based on race simply is not true. He is an example of why it isn't.

Yikes! Obama became President so racism is gone, right?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:15 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
This will all work itself out in the next few decades when everyone is of mixed race, just as we have seen it happen with mixed ethnicity.


Not much of a history buff huh?


guess not

enlighten

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:22 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
This will all work itself out in the next few decades when everyone is of mixed race, just as we have seen it happen with mixed ethnicity.


Not much of a history buff huh?


guess not

enlighten


There are ethnic conflicts in Europe that are at least 800 years old that marriages have not put to rest.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:27 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
This will all work itself out in the next few decades when everyone is of mixed race, just as we have seen it happen with mixed ethnicity.


It's interesting that in South Africa, the "coloreds" as they are called, are mostly considered white.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:30 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Coates favors massive federal investment in impoverished black neighborhoods as a form of reparations for slavery.


Slavery happened more than 150 years ago now, and the Civil War was blood reparations. Should we also pay reparations to the Chinese for racist immigration policies or to the Cubans for the Bay of Pigs?

It's a terrible slippery slope.

Also, Coates never specifies what he means by reparations. What exactly? A check from who? Should we separate the black tax payer money from the white? And why should people born in the last say the last 40 years pay for Jim Crow or slavery?

Affirmative action was reparations. Black history month and cultural sensitivity training are reparations.

Reparations for Coates seem to be a vague an unattainable goal of making him feel better for past slights and crimes.

In fairness to Coates, he wants reparations ("respirations") more for segregation and Jim Crow than for slavery.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:33 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
This will all work itself out in the next few decades when everyone is of mixed race, just as we have seen it happen with mixed ethnicity.


Not much of a history buff huh?


guess not

enlighten


There are ethnic conflicts in Europe that are at least 800 years old that marriages have not put to rest.


completely different situation

how are the ethnic enclaves, ones that existed even into our lifetimes, of every big US city holding up these days

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:34 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:


His fix society idea is beyond vague

NFS. Everyone's is.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:43 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
how are the ethnic enclaves, ones that existed even into our lifetimes, of every big US city holding up these days


1.) Poorly! We have a family of dagos on our block. Can you believe that--dagos in Beverly?

2.) Whites don't need ethnicity any longer. Race does all that organizational work now. (Class does, too.) But it would be interesting to see if race does end up following the same model ethnicity does, and, if so, how long it will take--and what will replace race as the new mechanism of exclusion.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:45 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
It certainly is not straight forward. Justice is not a clearly defined term. Certainly not in the case of an angry crowd chanting it.
For a specific case justice can vary but we have years of evidence that at least in some cases justice is not served when a police officer kills a black man.

Name the last time a police officer was convicted for something and served more than 5 years for killing a black man.


Don't know many cases where officers were arrested for shooting/killing anyone, but if you look at the BLM website their aims are certainly more than justice for police shootings.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:48 pm 
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formerlyknownas wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
how are the ethnic enclaves, ones that existed even into our lifetimes, of every big US city holding up these days


1.) Poorly! We have a family of dagos on our block. Can you believe that--dagos in Beverly?

2.) Whites don't need ethnicity any longer. Race does all that organizational work now. (Class does, too.) But it would be interesting to see if race does end up following the same model ethnicity does, and, if so, how long it will take--and what will replace race as the new mechanism of exclusion.


It already is.

Multiracial population in the US is growing at a rate three times faster than the general population.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/06/11/multiracial-in-america/

It will become even more en vogue now that Lawrence has taken on a white spouse.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:50 pm 
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formerlyknownas wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:


His fix society idea is beyond vague

NFS. Everyone's is.


There are certainly better thought out plans than reparations for a preferred group, paired with the singular causation theory that most ills are derived from racial intolerance. He feeds into nihilism.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

The Missing Link wrote:
For instance they were never taught that Columbus was a slave owner.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:51 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
formerlyknownas wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
how are the ethnic enclaves, ones that existed even into our lifetimes, of every big US city holding up these days


1.) Poorly! We have a family of dagos on our block. Can you believe that--dagos in Beverly?

2.) Whites don't need ethnicity any longer. Race does all that organizational work now. (Class does, too.) But it would be interesting to see if race does end up following the same model ethnicity does, and, if so, how long it will take--and what will replace race as the new mechanism of exclusion.


It already is.

Multiracial population in the US is growing at a rate three times faster than the general population.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/06/11/multiracial-in-america/

Still a small number. Something might still get in the way.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:54 pm 
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formerlyknownas wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Coates favors massive federal investment in impoverished black neighborhoods as a form of reparations for slavery.


Slavery happened more than 150 years ago now, and the Civil War was blood reparations. Should we also pay reparations to the Chinese for racist immigration policies or to the Cubans for the Bay of Pigs?

It's a terrible slippery slope.

Also, Coates never specifies what he means by reparations. What exactly? A check from who? Should we separate the black tax payer money from the white? And why should people born in the last say the last 40 years pay for Jim Crow or slavery?

Affirmative action was reparations. Black history month and cultural sensitivity training are reparations.

Reparations for Coates seem to be a vague an unattainable goal of making him feel better for past slights and crimes.

In fairness to Coates, he wants reparations ("respirations") more for segregation and Jim Crow than for slavery.


He traces the contemporary marginalization of blacks from slavery, through Jim Crow, and into modern forms of segregation, exclusion and systemic impoverishment. He sees racial oppression as a social mechanism that has assumed many different forms, all of them beginning with slavery and resulting in the structural social and economic disfranchisement of blacks.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:00 pm 
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Regardless of what all people view as the solutions to the many problems in our society something very important is missing. Immediacy. Since the 50's and especially late 60's and 70's many people had plans and well intended solutions. People are misled by leaders of all sorts as well as media outlets that the great ideas will fix things. Many so called fixes can take many many years to show not only results but if the results are actually positive.

I am sure if there were a message board back then many would have thought the Chicago Housing Authority was a great idea. People probably welcomed it. It took how long to see it was a failure and Cabrini Green and Robert Taylor torn down?

A part of this is politics. Pols promise grand solutions that are not even possible to really see results in their terms or possibly their lives. Unfortunately, people expect to realize these promises in a much faster time frame.

Do any of us really have a grand solution to much that can be realized quickly?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:01 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
formerlyknownas wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Coates favors massive federal investment in impoverished black neighborhoods as a form of reparations for slavery.


Slavery happened more than 150 years ago now, and the Civil War was blood reparations. Should we also pay reparations to the Chinese for racist immigration policies or to the Cubans for the Bay of Pigs?

It's a terrible slippery slope.

Also, Coates never specifies what he means by reparations. What exactly? A check from who? Should we separate the black tax payer money from the white? And why should people born in the last say the last 40 years pay for Jim Crow or slavery?

Affirmative action was reparations. Black history month and cultural sensitivity training are reparations.

Reparations for Coates seem to be a vague an unattainable goal of making him feel better for past slights and crimes.

In fairness to Coates, he wants reparations ("respirations") more for segregation and Jim Crow than for slavery.


He traces the contemporary marginalization of blacks from slavery, through Jim Crow, and into modern forms of segregation, exclusion and systemic impoverishment. He sees racial oppression as a social mechanism that has assumed many different forms, all of them beginning with slavery and resulting in the structural social and economic disfranchisement of blacks.

That's a good summary. I have to confess, though, when I read Coates, even when I agree with him, I come away not giving a shit. Something about the guy turns me off.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:02 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
This will all work itself out in the next few decades when everyone is of mixed race, just as we have seen it happen with mixed ethnicity.


Not much of a history buff huh?


guess not

enlighten


There are ethnic conflicts in Europe that are at least 800 years old that marriages have not put to rest.


completely different situation

how are the ethnic enclaves, ones that existed even into our lifetimes, of every big US city holding up these days


It isn't.

White enclaves can now focus their derision on blacks and Muslims. Such was not the case when their grandparents or older generations arrived on this soil.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:03 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yrg7vV4a5o

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:06 pm 
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formerlyknownas wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
formerlyknownas wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
how are the ethnic enclaves, ones that existed even into our lifetimes, of every big US city holding up these days


1.) Poorly! We have a family of dagos on our block. Can you believe that--dagos in Beverly?

2.) Whites don't need ethnicity any longer. Race does all that organizational work now. (Class does, too.) But it would be interesting to see if race does end up following the same model ethnicity does, and, if so, how long it will take--and what will replace race as the new mechanism of exclusion.


It already is.

Multiracial population in the US is growing at a rate three times faster than the general population.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/06/11/multiracial-in-america/

Still a small number. Something might still get in the way.


10% of babies born in the US in 2013 with a bullet (so to speak). That's bigger than say, the LGBTQ community or any other number of subsets that hold political sway.

The gay community in the 60s started a policy of publicly coming out because if people knew someone who was gay, it would break down bigotry. Same thing will happen here. The current (but growing) 10% has a much wider reach than their numbers.

My father in law tells stories about the Lithuanians beating Irish kids up if they crossed neighborhood lines (and vice versa). In my lifetime, kids were beaten up in Armour Park for crossing racial divides. I haven't heard of something like that in a while.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:21 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
This will all work itself out in the next few decades when everyone is of mixed race, just as we have seen it happen with mixed ethnicity.


Not much of a history buff huh?


guess not

enlighten


There are ethnic conflicts in Europe that are at least 800 years old that marriages have not put to rest.


completely different situation

how are the ethnic enclaves, ones that existed even into our lifetimes, of every big US city holding up these days


It isn't.

White enclaves can now focus their derision on blacks and Muslims. Such was not the case when their grandparents or older generations arrived on this soil.


No.

Ethnic ghettos don't exist because there are very few single ethnicity people being born. As I said and supported, the same thing appears to be happening on a racial level. I guess there could be a future where the mixed racial becomes its own race in terms of fighting for its seat in American structures but I doubt it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:24 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Regardless of what all people view as the solutions to the many problems in our society something very important is missing. Immediacy. Since the 50's and especially late 60's and 70's many people had plans and well intended solutions. People are misled by leaders of all sorts as well as media outlets that the great ideas will fix things. Many so called fixes can take many many years to show not only results but if the results are actually positive.

I am sure if there were a message board back then many would have thought the Chicago Housing Authority was a great idea. People probably welcomed it. It took how long to see it was a failure and Cabrini Green and Robert Taylor torn down?

A part of this is politics. Pols promise grand solutions that are not even possible to really see results in their terms or possibly their lives. Unfortunately, people expect to realize these promises in a much faster time frame.

Do any of us really have a grand solution to much that can be realized quickly?



In the beginning Public Housing was considered a good thing. The first secretary of public housing sought to integrate. She believed that in order for it to be successful there would need to be integration. This plan was nixed by white alderman and largely driven by whites in the outlying communities.

In 1966 a lawsuit was filed by a CHA resident which stated that public housing had been unsuccessful largely because it'd primarily been built in black ghetto areas. She "won" the suit and in exchange for winning the courts ruled that any new public housing would have to be built in white areas. As a result of this local politicians simply decided to build no new public housing.

The thinking behind public housing was sound, and in the beginning there were some benefits. The public housing of the 1950's was starkly different from that of the 90's. It had a chance to be successful but political and societal factors combined to kill whatever hope that Elizabeth Wood originally had for it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:30 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Regardless of what all people view as the solutions to the many problems in our society something very important is missing. Immediacy. Since the 50's and especially late 60's and 70's many people had plans and well intended solutions. People are misled by leaders of all sorts as well as media outlets that the great ideas will fix things. Many so called fixes can take many many years to show not only results but if the results are actually positive.

I am sure if there were a message board back then many would have thought the Chicago Housing Authority was a great idea. People probably welcomed it. It took how long to see it was a failure and Cabrini Green and Robert Taylor torn down?

A part of this is politics. Pols promise grand solutions that are not even possible to really see results in their terms or possibly their lives. Unfortunately, people expect to realize these promises in a much faster time frame.

Do any of us really have a grand solution to much that can be realized quickly?



In the beginning Public Housing was considered a good thing. The first secretary of public housing sought to integrate. She believed that in order for it to be successful there would need to be integration. This plan was nixed by white alderman and largely driven by whites in the outlying communities.

In 1966 a lawsuit was filed by a CHA resident which stated that public housing had been unsuccessful largely because it'd primarily been built in black ghetto areas. She "won" the suit and in exchange for winning the courts ruled that any new public housing would have to be built in white areas. As a result of this local politicians simply decided to build no new public housing.

The thinking behind public housing was sound, and in the beginning there were some benefits. The public housing of the 1950's was starkly different from that of the 90's. It had a chance to be successful but political and societal factors combined to kill whatever hope that Elizabeth Wood originally had for it.


Check out the City's new Affordable Housing requirements. While I have a huge problem with one industry (real estate development) having to exclusively shoulder the burden of a societal problem, this should result in some quick (unless the RE market goes teets up again) alleviation to housing integration in the city.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:34 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Regardless of what all people view as the solutions to the many problems in our society something very important is missing. Immediacy. Since the 50's and especially late 60's and 70's many people had plans and well intended solutions. People are misled by leaders of all sorts as well as media outlets that the great ideas will fix things. Many so called fixes can take many many years to show not only results but if the results are actually positive.

I am sure if there were a message board back then many would have thought the Chicago Housing Authority was a great idea. People probably welcomed it. It took how long to see it was a failure and Cabrini Green and Robert Taylor torn down?

A part of this is politics. Pols promise grand solutions that are not even possible to really see results in their terms or possibly their lives. Unfortunately, people expect to realize these promises in a much faster time frame.

Do any of us really have a grand solution to much that can be realized quickly?



In the beginning Public Housing was considered a good thing. The first secretary of public housing sought to integrate. She believed that in order for it to be successful there would need to be integration. This plan was nixed by white alderman and largely driven by whites in the outlying communities.

In 1966 a lawsuit was filed by a CHA resident which stated that public housing had been unsuccessful largely because it'd primarily been built in black ghetto areas. She "won" the suit and in exchange for winning the courts ruled that any new public housing would have to be built in white areas. As a result of this local politicians simply decided to build no new public housing.

The thinking behind public housing was sound, and in the beginning there were some benefits. The public housing of the 1950's was starkly different from that of the 90's. It had a chance to be successful but political and societal factors combined to kill whatever hope that Elizabeth Wood originally had for it.


Check out the City's new Affordable Housing requirements. While I have a huge problem with one industry (real estate development) having to exclusively shoulder the burden of a societal problem, this should result in some quick (unless the RE market goes teets up again) alleviation to housing integration in the city.


I'm somewhat familiar with it. Once they tore down the projects they tried to bring about mixed developments. They consisted of 3 tiers. Ownership, market rate, and section 8. They quickly found that class differences made it difficult to implement.

I will say that the area where the projects used to be looks completely different and there is integration. The central portion of Chicago is considered desirable. It's a good thing too.

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