Now you're confusing me- and probably IMU as well. Do you or do you not think that Matt Cain is one of the 250 best pitchers ever?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

This is not just intellectually dishonest, it's a flat out lie.

Obviously you left out the word "About" which is the crux of the whole comment.

I didn't need to peg Cain as the X best pitcher ever. I just used WAR to show that dude had a good career, and being 256th in all time WAR as a pitcher is probably an indication that you were good.

Also if I said, "Cain was one of the best 250 pitchers in baseball history", just use the quote function. Problem is I never said that.

You're sad dude.

JLN says that Vazquez was better than Buehrle.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yeah, I'm just busting JORR's balls, he doesn't like it when I insinuate that Javy was a better pitcher (NOT read: more accomplished) than Mark Buehrle.

If you're asking me to rank the best 250 pitchers in baseball history and see if Matt Cain is on the list, I don't have the time or the energy to do that.

Sorry.

Also, that isn't the point of the exercise, to rank where Cain is all time among major league baseball pitchers.

If you're asking me if Cain was a good pitcher, I'm pretty convinced that he is because his aggregate value is in a very high percentile as evidence by his WAR ranking. In addition to the whole slew of other attributes that I mentioned a few pages ago.

Not sure how someone saying that Vazquez was better than Buehrle is equivalent to someone saying that Vazquez was not a good pitcher. In fact it's the opposite.

Aside: I did not realize Wilbur Wood spent so much time in the bullpen. I wonder how many wins (and losses) he would have had if he was a starter for five more years (and didn't suffer any shattered kneecaps)? I also can't imagine a knuckler coming out of the bullpen, but it looks like it worked for him....

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I consider Cain to be a young pitcher...twelve years already?

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I think everyone can see who the dishonest one is.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Wins is the only thing that matters for starters and RBI doesn't matter in JORR'S baseball world.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

You got that half right.

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What? Please stop mischaracterizing my positions. I've never said anything even close to "wins are the only thing that matters". But W/L record over a career tells you more about a starting pitcher than any other single statistic. Also, I don't know where you get the idea that I think RBI don't matter. That's simply the offensive version of "W/L record is meaningless". The modern conventional wisdom is that all situations in the game are equal, players do what they do and would have done the same regardless of any changes in situation.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Actually, he got it all wrong.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Well if you want to be technical about it, sure.

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I thought you came out against RBI last week. I apologize if I got that wrong. So you're half right. #Progress

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

This might be JORR's finest moment

That isn't your position. Don't pretend it is. You're not saying WL is more telling than any other statistic. You're saying it overrules all other statistics in the case of Jose Quintana, Matt Cain and others.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

No exceptions! He will tell you how he feels and not offer any data to support it.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

The W/L record is the data. You've been brainwashed into believing it's meaningless. Which in your case is rather ridiculous since you apparently believe that RBI has meaning. It seems as if you have no consistent philosophy when it comes to your baseball opinions. They're all over the place.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I don't need to pretend anything. Matt Cain has not had a good career. Most of the time he's taken the mound some other guy has pitched better than he has. A lot of that has to do with him breaking down. But that's life. Derrick Rose hasn't had a good career either and he was once an MVP. Baseball is about time and repetition. Did Eddie Gaedel have a great career?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

What the hell is Derrick Rose's W/L ratio? Where are you going with this? And Dan Marino had a shit career too, yeah?

I hope this thread / topic goes on for years. I can only imagine the future declarations you might make.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

What's Marino's record? Anyway, there can be much larger differences between two NFL defenses than there are between two typical MLB offenses in the space of a single game.

Don't be a goof. You filpped your position on career WAR rather suddenly when you discovered One Post was the one advocating it. That makes you look disingenuous and frankly, rather silly.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Marino was 132-81 in the regular season

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I've not flipped shit. bWAR is an excellent figure. One of the best advanced statistics there is. But you use it to compare two streaks / seasons / careers of the same length.

You said Derrick Rose had a bad career. So far you're sticking to careers being defined by W/L. Derrick Rose has a 245-161 record.

Set your criteria and stick to it.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

When did Rose become a big league pitcher? My comment re: Rose was to compare him to Cain because of their injuries. A year or two is not a career. Don't be so fucking obtuse. And everyone can see you flipped sides when you realized I wasn't the one using career WAR to declare pitchers better than others. We all can read your fucking lol. You look silly.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

WL is one of 100 ways to compare starting pitchers and it's far from the best way.
Jorr likes to say that the pitcher has to out pitch the other pitcher. That's great but other statistics have the pitcher pitching against every other pitcher and not just the one in the game that he's currently pitching.
A starting pitcher has zero influence over the number of runs his team scores in 50% of all games played and only a very minor influence on the other 50%. Yet somehow, though the pitcher has virtually no influence on his team's offensive production, he is judged by the outcome of a game that is entirely dependent upon something he literally cannot control.
He can control his era to some extent. His k/bb, his k/9, his WHIP to a greater extent.
While wins are clearly an important way of determining a pitchers overall value, it is far from the best way.
Clearly there is not a single statistic that you can judge all pitchers by. To argue that is silly. It makes no sense. Is a car that does a 12 second quarter mile better than one that does it in 18 seconds? Maybe to a guy who likes speed. I'm much more interested in towing and payload capacity because I need that for work. A 12 second quarter mile matters less than being able to put 1500 lbs of shit in my bed. Is my truck a worse car than that 12 second speedster? Depends on what you value.

This conversation has become beyond tiresome on this board. It's giving me AIDS. how the fuck you mopes don't get that a WL tells you one thing among 100 data points and cannot begin to tell you the story of how good someone is is baffling.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

The pitcher only pitches the games he's in. He doesn't pitch other games. That's exactly why W/L record is a great stat. It shows you how a guy competed. ERA is detached from context. How would you like to pitch in Texas and have several asswipes on a message board comaparing your ERA unfavorably to some guy who pitches in San Diego?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Name names.

One Post said Cain is better than all but ~250 pitchers when it comes to career WAR.

This is a fact. It cannot be debated.

edit: You tried to take him out of context.

Now...if he was in the Top 250 in WAR, ERA+, FIP, WHIP, OPS against, K/BB, etc... then we can call him one of the greats.

Until then...we will just call him good. Which he was.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

That's just it though it doesn't tell you how he competed. It tells you how his team played behind him to be sure but it doesn't isolate the player you're judging. You need a data set that isolates that player to really get a full picture. WL has a purpose, but no where near the extent you claim. WL absolutely depends upon situations well beyond the control of the player to whom the statistic is assigned.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

After rereading your post....
I'd have to say that comparing your pitcher in Texas against your pitcher in San Diego is precisely what we've been doing this whole thread and over the last several years we've been having this debate.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014