In no way did I take him out of context. That's a fucking lie. Are you a fucking liar?

What happened was this and you can look back through the thread in case you're confused about your own bullshit.

It started with this:




I responded:



One Post didn't answer but you saw fit to chime in:



To that I replied:



Which got this smart ass response from you as if I were the one trying to use cumulative WAR as a measuring stick instead of mocking One Post for doing so:



Is that clear enough for you?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You can't isolate the pitcher's performance. It only exists within the games in which it occurred. The conditions in every game are specific and different from those in any other.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I'm still 100% correct in everything you've just quoted.



This is an accurate statement. The second sentence, in context, is still speaking of WAR. How you're not getting that I'll never know.

OnePost never said Matt Cain is the 250th best pitcher of all time. You tried to make it seem like he did, and that is why you attempted to use the Wood / Kershaw comparison.

This is all a result of your confusion. No one else's. Own it.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

If you can use cumulative wins why is cumulative war off the table?
Maybe I'm reading you wrong all along... do you mean to say that WL percentage is the stat you're interested in and not total WL?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Not really. A good pitcher wins in Texas with a higher ERA and he wins in San Diego with a lower one. The ERA is extremely subject to conditions. The W/L record not nearly as much.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Uhhh... except by an entire other half of that same exact game being played.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

It is? Because then he comes back and says this:



I'm certain I wasn't taking him out of context and he believes that Matt Cain was one of the best 250 pitchers ever- or at least in that vicinity.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Isn't there another guy pitching that half? You're telling me your guy is so good. Why can't he pitch better than the other guy most of the time? And if he can't, how good can he be?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

How is that different from all other statistics?
And I don't think you understood what I mean by isolating a pitchers performance. I'm saying you isolate the pitchers performance by using data from times in which he was performing. For example, his walks, his strikeouts, his whip. That is isolating the pitcher. When you include team based statistics such as wins, that is dependent upon things over which the player has no control such as his team's offensive production, which as noted above, he cannot influence at all in 50% of all games played and has only a minor influence in the other 50%.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Yeah, I've never cited cumulative wins. Of course Jose Fernandez isn't going to be able to accumulate as many wins as Tom Seaver simply due to the way he is used, but he could certainly post a better winning percentage.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Doesn't that statement kind of say why wins is a bit of a silly statistic to use when judging how good a pitcher is? I mean, if a pitcher that allows more runs gets wins based on the conditions of the stadium rather than his talent... right?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

.....

So when you look at jake tonight or sale last night those performance, while spectacular in their individual capacity, would never be part of a data set by which you'd judge the pitcher?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

The other stats are averages. Nas has actually argued that Jose Quintana's 3.53 ERA is better than Shelby Miller's 3.02 because Quintana is "more consistent". That kind of defies the entire point of the average. The W/L record isn't an average. It's an actual result of how a particular guy fared vs. the other guys he faced. Of course there are going to be situations like last night with Sale. Ultimately though, it had no effect on his percentage, although it would be fair to argue it should have been a win. But it goes the other way sometimes too. Sale has left down in the game and had the offense bail him out at times too. All of this is predicated on a large enough sample. I would suggest when a guy gets around 200 career starts he's shown you who he is.

Also, do you know what 400 game winner Walter Johnson's Hall of Fame plaque says?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

And yet, I've asked again and again for the great pitcher with the losing career record and the best you guys can come up with is Matt Cain.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Why does it have to be losing? Wouldn't a "great" pitcher with WL% around average reveal WL% to be just as faulty a statistic?

Yeah ok this when thing is really not worth discussing. Have a good night man.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

But there isn't one.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I guess you could try to hang your hat on a guy like Bob Friend.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

No matter who people come up with your response is going to be the same.

Maybe, just maybe you should admit there could be exceptions to your rule? Cain seems to be one. I know you won't admit that. But I think most others around here see it.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Cain has had more bad seasons than good ones. Come on. Most others around here get excited when a guy has three good at-bats and call him great. Then they turn on him when he has a slump. Hell, there's a guy right now complaining about the "best manager in the game"'s bullpen usage. People have short attention spans and they're fickle. Baseball is a game of time and repetition.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Name (Games +/- .500, Career League-Adjusted FIP-, Career fWAR)

Tom Bradley (-6, 88, 17.5)
Fritz Peterson (+2, 93, 32.7)
Jerry Koosman (+13, 90, 62.6) <---The 68th-best career bWAR is only 13 games above .500 across 500+ career starts)
Chris Short (+3, 96, 30.9)
Bill Hands (+1, 90, 31.9)
Ed Halicki (-11, 93, 15.6)
Camilo Pascual (+4, 87, 52)
Bob Friend (-33, 89, 61.1)
Len Barker (-2, 85, 24.7)
Rudy May (-4, 94, 36.3)
Rick Wise (+7, 95, 44.9)
Bob Rush (-25, 86, 43.7)
Pascual Perez (-1, 92, 19.6)

JORR is killing you all here. Posting stats of guys you've never even seen pitch but JORR probably has is sure to turn tide.

Hey, does someone drive a cement truck, because JORR is moving the goalposts all over the place here.



Dude, you're just a fucking liar. You asked for "good" pitchers with 200+ starts with a losing career record.

Matt Cain
Jon Matlack (a guy who is comparable to Jack Morris - a guy you define as good)
Randy Jones
Mark Gubicza

Are there hundreds of good pitchers with two hundred plus starts and a losing record? No, probably just a handful, but you're the asshead who chose to argue an absolute and you picked the parameters.

I'm not the only one calling you out for being a liar in this thread. Here you are blatantly lying about what you asked for, you didn't say a great starting pitcher, but you asked for a good or near great pitcher initially, now you've moved the goalpost to full on great.

You're a pathetic sack of shit.

Is that the one that says his team sucked ("second division" might have been the term) even though they had some decent seasons and some pretty good ones?

_________________

Good to know I can't argue about the greatness of Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb. Thanks!

Comparing Babe Ruth to Fritz Peterson should help even more.

"Help" what, exactly?

Here are Cain's seasons

2005: 46 IP 30 K's 185 ERA+
2006 190 IP 179 K's 108 ERA+
2007 200 IP 163 K's 123 ERA+
2008 217 IP 186 K's 117 ERA+
2009 217 IP 171 K's 147 ERA+ (AS Game Appearance)
2010 223 IP 181 K's 124 ERA+ (12th in Cy Young Voting WS Ring)
2011 221 IP 177 K's 121 ERA + (AS Game Appearance 8th in Cy Young Voting)
2012 219 IP 193 K's 126 ERA +(AS Game Appearance 6th in Cy Young Voting WS Ring)
2013 184 IP 158 K's 86 ERA +
2014 90 IP 70 K's 83 ERA +
2015 60 IP 71 K's 65 ERA +
2016 57 IP 41 K's 75 ERA +

I'll grant that 2013-2016 were not good seasons (bad if you will), so you've got to tell me which of the 3 seasons from 2005-2012 he wasn't a good pitcher for him to have more bad seasons than good seasons.

Dude A: Hey JORR did you see that game by Harvey Haddix last night?

JORR: No, what happened.

Dude A: Guy took a perfect game into the thirteenth inning and lost after an error, sac bunt and a hit.

JORR: Fucking pussy just doesn't know how to compete. Now watch my man Chris Knapp go out and give up 6 earned runs in 5 innings and get the win like a real competitor does.