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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:45 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Islam has done nothing of the sort. People who have twisted Islam into something unrecognizable is at war with the west


Now you're trying to define who is a "real Muslim".


No, I am telling you a truth.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:46 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:

Does the same thing apply to the christian people you quoted, or just to Islam? :lol: :lol:


Of course it does.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:48 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
That question didn't require a question in response. It's straightforward. And I always accept credible sources. Don't respond with what your chiropractor says it is.


My chiropractor says frequent adjustments will increase blood flow to your brain.

It doesn't matter what the percentage is.

Of course it matters. JORR is using the percentage as a factual basis for why his phobia of Islam is rational. Have you been following the discussion? It's entirely relevant.



I have no phobia. There are approximately 200 million Muslims that want you and me dead. You can pretend that isn't the case, but I'm not sure what purpose that serves.

The percentage of "refugees" that have run amok in Europe is unimportant. The point is that many of them have.

If I gave you a bushel of apples and said ten percent or even one percent were poison would you order me to eat them while screaming, "NOT ALL APPLES!"?

Well, I don't see what purpose bringing those 200 million Muslims up is. They are doing a pretty shit job of it if they indeed want us dead, so they can fuck off. Until the percentage of them who commit violent acts in the United States is statistically significant, and it's nowhere close, I don't see what the point is in peddling in fear mongering. And make no mistake, that's exactly what you're doing if you look at what you're saying juxtaposed with the actual impact radical terrorism has on US citizens.

The apple analogy is terrible, and it's every bit as incompatible with Western values as you claim Islam is. By your analogy, there's a percentage of white, black, Hispanic, and Asian people that are poison too. Let's ban everybody!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:48 pm 
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Indonesia is the nation that houses the largest number of Muslims. To the best of my knowledge you won't find many that have declared war on the West. It's not an Islamic issue as much as it is a Geopolitical issue couched under the guise of religion.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:51 pm 
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Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:
Seacrest wrote:

Does the same thing apply to the christian people you quoted, or just to Islam? :lol: :lol:


Of course it does.


Then post us some quotes from a jahadi website when you have a minute. You know, the quotes where Allah says he wants a world wide caliphate and all of the infidels dead. .

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:57 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:

Islam has done nothing of the sort. People who have twisted Islam into something unrecognizable is at war with the west.


Does the same thing apply to the christian people you quoted, or just to Islam? :lol: :lol:

:lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:00 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Indonesia is the nation that houses the largest number of Muslims. To the best of my knowledge you won't find many that have declared war on the West. It's not an Islamic issue as much as it is a Geopolitical issue couched under the guise of religion.


It's OK for people to learn from Christianity's mistakes.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:01 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:
Seacrest wrote:

Does the same thing apply to the christian people you quoted, or just to Islam? :lol: :lol:


Of course it does.


Then post us some quotes from a jahadi website when you have a minute. You know, the quotes where Allah says he wants a world wide caliphate and all of the infidels dead. .


Why?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:06 pm 
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I encourage you to read the Koran. So many people do not yet talk about a religion as if they know it.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:12 pm 
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Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Islam has done nothing of the sort. People who have twisted Islam into something unrecognizable is at war with the west


Now you're trying to define who is a "real Muslim".


No, I am telling you a truth.


Who the hell are you to say what "real Islam" is? An Imam?

Are the guys in this video "real Muslims"?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB6gps7dkUA

Now, I don't want to kick those people out. But they damn sure don't share the values most of us hold dear. I look at them the way I look at anyone with bad beliefs. And I don't think we should be rushing to allow more of them in. I don't think it's bigotry to exercise caution in our immigration policy when it comes to people who are known to hold values that are antithetical to ours.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:15 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:

The apple analogy is terrible, and it's every bit as incompatible with Western values as you claim Islam is. By your analogy, there's a percentage of white, black, Hispanic, and Asian people that are poison too. Let's ban everybody!


No, it's a good analogy. Of course there are percentages of every group that are bad, but the reason they are bad is not based on a shared belief in specific doctrine.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:17 pm 
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There is no "one shared view".

The enigma of Islam: The two faces of Muhammad

American Muslims tell us that Islam is a religion of peace. Jihadist leaders abroad describe Islam as a religion of war against infidels. Who is correct? Both are correct.

If both are correct, does this mean that there are two Muhammads and two Qurans? Yes, in the sense that Muhammad was like two different persons at two different times and the Quran is like two contradictory books pasted together.

Now that you are thoroughly confused, let us turn to history and to the book Islam and the Bible: Why two faiths collide (2004), by David Goldmann, veteran missionary to Muslims in Morocco, for the solution to this riddle.

Muhammad (circa 570–632 A.D.) was born in Mecca and was a traveling merchant until age 40. From 610–622 he had a ministry in Mecca as a prophet of Allah. In 622, he fled from his enemies in Mecca and led his followers to Medina. Through tribal political alliances, Muhammad soon became the ruler of Medina. He ruled Medina until his death (622–632).

According to Mr. Goldmann, Muhammad as ruler of Medina had a strikingly different character than when he was the prophet of Mecca. The Quranic verses he penned in Mecca often contradict the verses he wrote in Medina. Let us compare the two Muhammads and the two Qurans. The following numbered examples are paraphrases of points in Goldmann's book. My commentaries on the numbered statements are in parentheses.

Mecca versus Medina

(1) In Mecca, Muhammad preached and exhorted people to submit to Islam. In Medina, he used the threat of the sword to compel people to convert to Islam.

(According to the Medina verses, Allah accepts converts who do not believe in him inwardly, but will kneel to him outwardly under threat of death. Muhammad did not have this view of Allah until he became a war lord and used force to compel people to accept his rule.)

(2) In Mecca, Muhammad led the life of a teacher and prophet and followed disciplines of prayer, fasting, and worship. In Medina, he was the political ruler and the military commander. During his ten years in Medina, he personally led 27 military attacks. Prior to his death, he conquered most of the Arabian peninsula.

(The Allah of Medina allowed his prophet to be a warlord seeking military conquest. In like manner, he encourages Muslim leaders to spread the religion of Islam by the sword--which they did on an epic scale after the death of Muhammad. The conquests continued until the Muslims met those with stronger armies, or they outran their supply lines. The Muslims eventually conquered about 50% of the Christian world--the eastern Mediterranean lands, the Middle East, and North Africa--and gradually extinguished most of the Christian testimony in those lands.)

(The Westward rush of conquest was halted exactly a century after Muhammad's death. The Muslim army in Spain attacked Gaul [France] and was defeated by Charles the Hammer at the battle of Tours [732 A.D.]. Muslims subsequently switched to expansion through proselytizing and mercantile colonies. However, when new Muslim nations arose with great armies [e.g., Seljuk Turks, Ottoman Turks, and Moguls], they reverted to the expansion of Islam through conquest. The Ottoman Turks conquered the remains of the Christian Byzantine Empire and took Constantinople in 1453. They attacked Europe from the east in 1529 and 1683, and both times were stopped at the gates of Vienna by European armies. Three times [732, 1529 & 1683], Christian civilization in Europe came close to extinction from invading Muslim armies.)

(3) In Mecca, Muhammad had one wife. During his last ten years of his life at Medina, he married twelve more women.

(The poor family man of Mecca became the wealthy, voluptuous sheik with a harem of "wives" in Medina. Polygamy and harem culture debases women and makes men hedonistic and narcissistic. Societies that sanction polygamy, harems, and concubines have always assigned a low status to women.)

(The Medina Quran's heaven for men is a garden paradise where every male sensual pleasure is catered to by nubile nymphs--just as every sensual pleasure of Muhammad, as the voluptuous sheik of a harem, was indulged. The Medina Allah is a God for men. Goldmann says Muslim women have a hard time getting into paradise.)

(4) In Mecca, Muhammad fought against idol worship. In doing so, he exempted Christians and Jews from his proscriptions and persecutions and respected them as "people of the book." In Medina, he persecuted Christians and Jews as infidels.

(Christians and Jews in Islamic countries never know when they will be protected and respected or persecuted and reviled. The situation is often fluid so that protection can suddenly gives way to persecution. Historically, the best Christians and Jews can hope for under Muslim rule is second class citizenship and heavy taxes from which Muslims are exempt. When jihad and war lord sensibilities were in the air, Christians and Jews often faced forced conversion, banishment, slavery, sexual bondage, or death.)

Was Muhammad corrupted by power?

Was Muhammad corrupted by power in Medina? We do not know for sure, but it appears to be so. His exploitation of women by creating a harem of wives and his violent abuse of power in Medina was the very antithesis of his methods and behavior in Mecca. If the change in the Quranic verses resulted from Mohammed's changed character, then we can rule out Muhammad's claim that the contents of the Quran were dictated by the Angel Gabriel. If Muhammad lied about getting the verses from Gabriel, the changed verses were probably self-serving. Does that imply that Muhammad was a charlatan? Not necessarily. It's possible he was just self-deceived.

The hypnotic power by which Islam holds hundreds of millions of people in an enchanted thralldom is the profile of a cult, not a mere con-game. The spiritual powers of heretical cults emanate from diabolical sources. Muhammad may well have been deluded by the same dark powers as have bewitched his followers.

Unfortunately, Muhammad's changed behavior and teachings in Medina are a little too convenient and self-serving for anyone with a grain of skepticism about human nature to swallow. We are thereby compelled to face the possibility that Muhammad was corrupted in Medina by the lust for power, control, vengeance, fame, wealth, and women--and wrote the new verses of the Quran to rationalize his vices.

We can find the same venal motivations and self-serving manipulation of religion in many of the Muslim caliphs that followed Muhammad, and in the Muslim dictators of today. The corruption of Muslim officialdom in many lands seems to follow the pattern set by Mohammed when he was a corrupt war lord.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:20 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:25 pm 
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City of Fools wrote:
I encourage you to read the Koran. So many people do not yet talk about a religion as if they know it.


Don't you have to know Arabic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAXmikvwYlk

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:30 pm 
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City of Fools wrote:
I encourage you to read the Koran. So many people do not yet talk about a religion as if they know it.


Any research into Islam and the teachings of Islamic scholars even in recent times is frightening. Even in lovely Indonesia you can be jailed or caned for criticizing the prophet.

Islam claims to be the solution to all of society's problems.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:31 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
I encourage you to read the Koran. So many people do not yet talk about a religion as if they know it.


Don't you have to know Arabic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAXmikvwYlk


https://play.google.com/store/books/det ... &gclsrc=ds

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:34 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
I encourage you to read the Koran. So many people do not yet talk about a religion as if they know it.


Don't you have to know Arabic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAXmikvwYlk


https://play.google.com/store/books/det ... &gclsrc=ds



Oh, I know there are translations, but one of the arguments you often hear is that you can't really understand unless you read the original Arabic. I guess God is an Arab, huh?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:39 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I guess God is an Arab, huh?


Image

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:40 pm 
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Was Muhammad corrupted by power in Medina? We do not know for sure, but it appears to be so. His exploitation of women by creating a harem of wives and his violent abuse of power in Medina was the very antithesis of his methods and behavior in Mecca. If the change in the Quranic verses resulted from Mohammed's changed character, then we can rule out Muhammad's claim that the contents of the Quran were dictated by the Angel Gabriel. If Muhammad lied about getting the verses from Gabriel, the changed verses were probably self-serving. Does that imply that Muhammad was a charlatan? Not necessarily. It's possible he was just self-deceived.

The hypnotic power by which Islam holds hundreds of millions of people in an enchanted thralldom is the profile of a cult, not a mere con-game. The spiritual powers of heretical cults emanate from diabolical sources. Muhammad may well have been deluded by the same dark powers as have bewitched his followers.


So we can't say Muhammed was just making it up as he went along. It was "dark powers". And we are supposed to respect and take this belief system seriously...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:41 pm 
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God is a woman.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:43 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I guess God is an Arab, huh?

I thought he was a WASP

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:07 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
I encourage you to read the Koran. So many people do not yet talk about a religion as if they know it.


Don't you have to know Arabic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAXmikvwYlk


This is just awesome JORR....great find man! haha

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:21 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Islam has done nothing of the sort. People who have twisted Islam into something unrecognizable is at war with the west


Now you're trying to define who is a "real Muslim".


No, I am telling you a truth.


Who the hell are you to say what "real Islam" is? An Imam?

Are the guys in this video "real Muslims"?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB6gps7dkUA

Now, I don't want to kick those people out. But they damn sure don't share the values most of us hold dear. I look at them the way I look at anyone with bad beliefs. And I don't think we should be rushing to allow more of them in. I don't think it's bigotry to exercise caution in our immigration policy when it comes to people who are known to hold values that are antithetical to ours.


I don't know who is a real Muslim but I do know that groups that employ terrorism in the name of Islam are corrupting the religion.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:26 pm 
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Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Islam has done nothing of the sort. People who have twisted Islam into something unrecognizable is at war with the west


Now you're trying to define who is a "real Muslim".


No, I am telling you a truth.


Who the hell are you to say what "real Islam" is? An Imam?

Are the guys in this video "real Muslims"?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB6gps7dkUA

Now, I don't want to kick those people out. But they damn sure don't share the values most of us hold dear. I look at them the way I look at anyone with bad beliefs. And I don't think we should be rushing to allow more of them in. I don't think it's bigotry to exercise caution in our immigration policy when it comes to people who are known to hold values that are antithetical to ours.


I don't know who is a real Muslim but I do know that groups that employ terrorism in the name of Islam are corrupting the religion.


That seems like a plea more than a statement of fact.

Doesn't the Koran call for jihad?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:27 pm 
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Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Islam has done nothing of the sort. People who have twisted Islam into something unrecognizable is at war with the west


Now you're trying to define who is a "real Muslim".


No, I am telling you a truth.


Who the hell are you to say what "real Islam" is? An Imam?

Are the guys in this video "real Muslims"?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB6gps7dkUA

Now, I don't want to kick those people out. But they damn sure don't share the values most of us hold dear. I look at them the way I look at anyone with bad beliefs. And I don't think we should be rushing to allow more of them in. I don't think it's bigotry to exercise caution in our immigration policy when it comes to people who are known to hold values that are antithetical to ours.


I don't know who is a real Muslim but I do know that groups that employ terrorism in the name of Islam are corrupting the religion.


If you know about the actions of Mohammed, then you don't know that either.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:40 pm 
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You both hate people you know nothing about.

I'm done going in circles with you fuckers.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:49 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
I encourage you to read the Koran. So many people do not yet talk about a religion as if they know it.


Don't you have to know Arabic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAXmikvwYlk


https://play.google.com/store/books/det ... &gclsrc=ds



Oh, I know there are translations, but one of the arguments you often hear is that you can't really understand unless you read the original Arabic. I guess God is an Arab, huh?

Yeah, that's interesting--it shows how much religion is intertwined with language. I guess every great religion has its own sacred language, even if they give it up after a millennium or two.

I've had people (two people) give me copies of the Koran and say, "Well, this isn't really the Koran; it's a translation, so...." And they're right that you do lose something in translation, but they think you lose something mystical (i.e., something for which evidence cannot be supplied), whereas what you really lose is context. I don't read Hebrew, but I have taken Hebrew Bible classes with scholars and it was a lot of fun to have them fill in what we're missing. It's cool to have a sacred language, but foolish to think that anyone with access to life outside earth actually speaks or gives a shit about that language. I think there's also a geographical or racial element to sacred languages, which makes this Arabic typical when placed alongside other such languages (since language is so closely tied to identity). It's no better than Hebrew, Koine Greek, Latin, Tamil, Sanskrit, or Brooklyneese.

Having said that, the English KJV of the Bible is one of the few works of translation to be considered a classic.

I tried to read the Koran, but it's not really narrative-based, so it is hard to get into it. I didn't know what the hell was going on. The Hebrew Bible, on the other hand, is a marvelous collection of almost every literary genre, plot, character, theme, etc. So much more narrative.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:50 pm 
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Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:
You both hate people you know nothing about.

I'm done going in circles with you fuckers.


I don't hate anyone. But when someone worships a book that says I'm an infidel, I know enough to consider them potentially dangerous.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:17 am
Posts: 72380
Location: Palatine
pizza_Place: Lou Malnatis
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Sir Loin Of Beef wrote:
You both hate people you know nothing about.

I'm done going in circles with you fuckers.


I don't hate anyone. But when someone worships a book that says I'm an infidel, I know enough to consider them potentially dangerous.

I know enough to consider everyone potentially dangerous.

Labeling all Muslims as sharing the same world view is exactly what ISIS wants. You and seacrest are playing right into their game.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul


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