A couple of actual things.

People tend to repeat whatever they find in less than 140 characters or see in a 30 second sound bite. Islam was conceived as a religion that targeted people. Mohammed himself claimed to have killed 1000 men. None of them showed up on his doorstep.

JORR has never said all Muslims are radicals.

While I detest all war, to claim that the US just decided to drop bombs indiscriminately in Afghanistan has no correlation with reality. The government of Kuwait asked for help. Iraq is different story.

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Right. And a lot of Americans looooove to say "Well, it's time the good Muslims start speaking up and holding their governments responsible!" It'd be nice if we practiced what we preached. I posted a story last year about us blowing up a Doctors Without Borders hospital, knowingly. Nobody gave a fuck.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Just a couple of guys who forget, or never knew, that the countries we ended up in were places that had come after us first and had been funded by other Islamic governments.

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There is no justification for what the U.S. did in Iraq. U.S. intervention in the Middle East predates Iraq by at least 50 years. Muslims didn't target the U.S. until the U.S. took "multiple actions in the Middle East.

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I really hope you aren't justifying the actions we have taken over the last 12-13 years. They are reprehensible.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You are absolutely and fundamentally wrong.

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At least we can now agree that Islam targets others from its earliest beginnings.

And go back more than 50 years to Israel, and you will have the most accurate starting point for Islamic anger and future aggression toward the US.

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So now we were not attacked by people on 9/11 that were from Afghanistan and funded by the wealthy in Saudi Arabia?

I don't think the word absolute means what you think it means.

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They weren't blowing things up in the U.S. in 1948 and many would argue that any anger which resulted due to Israel is Justified.

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I detest war.

That is the second time I have said it.

I am not and never was for war in Afghanistan or Iraq.

However, to say that we were the aggressor with Afghanistan has ZERO correlation with reality.

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The problem with blaming our "intervention" in the Middle East is that the terrorist we and others are dealing with are not coming from those countries and other countries in Europe that aren't us are dealing with the same terrorists. I must have missed all that French intervention in the Middle East.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

So if the ends justify the means, then how can you have any issue with the US? Remember, they were just looking out for the future security of their citizens.

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Iraq attacked us on 9/11? What about Afghanistan? I don't think you addressed my original point either. U.S. actions in Iran in 1953 is the primary reason that Iran sponsored terrorism against the U.S. Hostilities didn't begin with Osama Bin Laden. I know its convenient for Americans because it fits the narrative but that is false.

In bringing up I'm 9/11 I'm reminded of the famous Tarkanian line about how the NCAA operates. The NCAA shows just how mad they are at Kentucky by placing Cleveland State on probation. United States did exactly the same thing with respect to Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

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And the Belgium and German interventions as well.

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FAVRE Fan, are there things?!

C'mon, lil buddy!

FAVRE Fan, are there things?!

C'mon, lil buddy!

Saddam was no threat and he definitely was not a radical Islamist.

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Afghanistan was directly complicit in the attacks on 9/11. As was Saudi Arabia for allowing it's funding to flow through their country.

If the US was only country that Iran engaged in terrorist activities against, your reference to 1953 would hold at least a little water. Iran exports terror to many others beside the US.

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Who said that he was?

You are the one playing the ends justify the means, not me.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Seacrest My essential point is that U.S. intervention in the Middle East predates any actions that Muslims have taken against Americans. It is not even close. There would not be any need to protect "our security" interests had this not occurred. You stated that they targeted the U.S. first and that is fundamentally false.

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I understand you feel contempt for Christians is somehow different than contempt for Muslims.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Your "essential point" changed from your original statement. And your original statement that Islam was not conceived as a religion that targets the west is demonstrably false and totally at odds with actual history.

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I don't recall anyone ever saying anything of the kind.

But all Muslims do believe the Koran to be the perfect word of God. If you don't I can't see how you could be a Muslim.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Do you know for a fact ALL Muslims believe that?

Do you think all Christians believe the bible to be the perfect word of God?

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I don't remember you saying that.

And i was always the sober one.

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We have to be able to define words if we're going to communicate, so I'll ask you to define "Muslim" and "Christian" for me before I can answer that.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Mohammed targeted the United States? I'm really not concerned about Europe. I'm pretty sure that he didn't target a country that really wasn't a country. That would be quite the feat. In modern times the first Salvo by a mile was dropped by the U.S. conveniently this is ignored during the non stop Muslim bash fest.

Also if Islam was conceived as an attacker of Western Ideas then why haven't the Muslims from other regions really gotten in on the action? Muslims also weren't the only people participating in conquest either if you want to play that game.

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Eh... I put in the extra effort to look up actual definitions and saw words like adhere or follows. Nothing about perfect word of God.

In your opinion JoRR, can you follow a faith without practicing it? Because I think there are plenty of people within both of these religions who follow without practicing.

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I don't understand what ltg is saying. Is he saying that any reaction is justified as long as you weren't the first to start it? This isn't a battle between children. "He started it" doesn't matter that much.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!