But Fergie is MANY games over .500 for his career. Esteban Loaiza lost two games with a 2-1 score during his brilliant 2003 campaign. Shit happens.

Your record says what you are. The biggest outlier with that in Quintana. For every guy like him who is "unlucky", there are 2 or 3 guys who are 'unlucky' but still have winning records. Quintana makes for an interesting debate here. But in general, JOrr's point of view that a W-L record can tell you a lot about a starting pitcher over his career is correct.

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Yep.

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What's there to say about him? He's just a middle of the road pitcher. The guy on the other team usually pitches as well or better than he does. This is baseball, not steroid ball. If you expect your team to provide six runs of "support" every game, you're barking up the wrong tree. The game are likely to be close and low-scoring. Good pitchers come out on the winning end more often than not. Then there are mediocre guys like Horlen and Quintana.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

What are you talking about? He's given up 1 run or less in 4 of his 5 starts since the All Star break. Most pitchers win over 75% of those starts. How many did Quintana win? He won only 1. He's given up 6 runs in 5 starts since the break and still isn't winning. He's won 1 game all year when he's given up more than 1 run.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Well, there's no question that he's been a Top 10 starter in the majors this year. I'd say that your standards are ridiculously high if that qualifies as middle of the road, JORR!

I'll forward $20 to your PayPal account if you agree to call Bernstein and talk about this. We can coordinate it - let everyone know when you're calling, and we'll stay glued to our radios.

As a side note, my boss called Bernstein and got ridiculed. He doesn't know that I know.

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JORR will never understand that pitchers are facing two different offenses with two different skill levels and two different levels of success.

Weird how someone so "rock and roll" can be so traditional and 'establishment."

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

If JB Shuck is your CF'er you have a major problem on your hands before the game even begins.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I got a better idea. Jorr agrees to make that call. In return, you call up with the name Whiskey Dick. If you get on the air, then it's an even trade. We'd prefer that you make references to being an alcoholic who can't get it up rather than a guy named Richard that likes Whiskey.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

How many times must it be explained to you that in the VAST majority of games the average difference in offense between the two teams is a fraction of a run which can't even be scored in the space of a single game? You apparently find that fraction of a run to be enough to cause a "great" pitcher to lose over half his decisions.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

False.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Now why would I do that? So he can scream some shit he read in Joe Sheehan's newsletter and hang up on me? Joe Sheehan (and thus bernstein) also thought Jason Heyward was a top ten player in baseball. Oops!

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You can't just drink whiskey and then expect to be competent in the sack. You need a little help, if you know what I'm saying. Whiskey merely dulls the penis nerves and turns you into super man. I'm not much for sober loving.

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First of all, just so you know, Quintana is 42-42 for his career. Secondly, I don't recognize pitcher decisions when discussing a pitcher's skill or ability.

In Quintana's career innings on the mound, he has given up 362 runs (334 earned). That works out to him holding opponents to 3.64 per 9 innings pitched. Those opponents average 4.34 runs scored per 9 innings against all other pitchers they face. Meanwhile, the White Sox offense scores 3.1 runs per 9 innings Quintana pitches.

In summary, Quintana holds teams he faces to ~80% of their usual production. And the White Sox offense still cannot even get close to matching that production no matter which opposing pitcher they face.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

So, what your saying is that it is actually worse for the Sox to have Quintana on the mound because him pitching lowers the Sox offensive production to a level lower than he lowers their opponents?

I'm saying the White Sox offense is putrid, and needs to be addressed immediately.

They seem to be even worse when Quintana takes the mound. Especially this season.

If White Sox fans want to blame Quintana instead of the offense for these losses...than they deserve every loss that comes their way. Idiot fans don't deserve to have their team win.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

You don't have to acknowledge anything. You're not a GM. If you were, you'd probably trade for Shelby Miller and Jason Heyward, misled by WAR.

But here's an incontrovertible fact. The guy some of you call a "top ten starter in the majors" has been less effective at holding the teams he's faced below their scoring average than the (supposedly lesser in most cases) pitchers he has faced have been at holding the White Sox under theirs.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

What does that have to do with Quintana? You've only helped my argument by identifying two constants:

Jose Quintana is always good against opponents.
White Sox offense is always bad against opponents.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

But you have also pointed out the the Sox are at their worst with Quintana on the mound. Therefore, Quintana is bad for the White Sox. In fact, based on your scoring numbers above, it is a net negative for the Sox to have him on the mound.

He may be good for another team, but he is bad for the Sox. Sox should trade him immediately.

I think the argument would be different if Quintana was getting the Sox average for run support.

The fact that Quintana gets below average run support by a large margin indicates that the other guy is outpitching him.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

What does it have to do with Quintana? He's in a baseball game. It is unrelated to any other game and his performance only has any value when compared to the performance of the pitcher(s) he faces. The FACT is the pitchers he faces hold the Sox further under their scoring average than Quintana holds the teams he faces under theirs. He is getting outpitched in most games. I know the Internet has taught you not to look at it that way, but that's the truth.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

There are 29 teams that hope the White Sox organization comes to that conclusion.

Again...if you want to blame Quintana for those losses...you do you. But don't ever question that hell that the White Sox find themselves in.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

No.

His performance against the other team's hitters is what matters. And he EXCELS. No matter if you look at his success over his career, or break down his individual game logs...he dominates. He does his job better than most pitchers.

If your company is losing a bunch of money due to the sales guys slacking off...do you fire the night janitor? The accountants? It sounds like the company's shareholders would love those moves.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Yes.

It doesn't matter how fast a guy swims in an afternoon preliminary. It's what he does in a pool next to Michael Phelps that counts. All Quintana does is get outpitched by guys you would insist are not as good as he is most of the time.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

He "dominates" so much he loses most of the time. What are the pitchers he faces doing? SUPER-DOMINATING?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

people swimming are in direct competition with each other , pitchers are not

Quintana is a dominant pitcher. He is so dominant, his mere presence on the mound lowers every batter in that game's offensive production. What other pitcher in baseball can say that?

Yeah, it's not a perfect analogy. The point remains that in most cases the difference between the average offensive output of both clubs is less than a run. The other conditions in the games are the same for both pitchers, plate ump, hitter's background, weather, etc. Are we really saying that a "top ten pitcher in the majors" shouldn't win more often than not under such conditions? Quintana is not a guy whose record suggests he is worse than he actually is. He's a guy whose WHIP and ERA suggest he is better than he actually is.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Jose Quintana has never faced another pitcher, besides the few plate appearances in interleague.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Except there are 12 qualified MLB starters right now that average 6 RS/9 or better, and 30 that average 5 or better. The White Sox as a team average below 4, and average just more than 3 runs per 9 when Quintana is on the hill.

The White Sox offense is in the bottom half of the MLB in AVG, bottom-3rd in OBP, and bottom-quartile in SLG. It is the offense that sucks when Quintana is pitching, not the opposing pitcher being really good. If it were indeed that Quintana is just "bested" by better pitchers every time out, we would expect to see the Sox as an above-average team shut down by a great starter. They are not, they are a well-below-average offensive team.

Again, we go with a 20 game sample when it suits our argument.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don