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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:41 am 
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Team GB runner Lynsey Sharp was at the centre of a row over so-called intersex athletes last night after tearfully admitting it was "difficult" competing against them at Rio 2016.

Sharp, who came sixth after Caster Semenya powered to victory in the women's 800m, appeared to criticise recent law reforms allowing runners avoid testosterone-suppressants.

She was forced to clarify that she had "tremendous respect" for Semenya after earlier fighting back tears as she told the BBC: "The public can see how difficult it is with the change of rule but all we can do is give it our best."

Semenya, a South African with levels of testosterone three times higher than that of the average woman, was able to compete without suppressants after the Court of Arbitration for Sport suspended regulations on "hyperandrogenism" in a case last July.
Caster Semenya destroys rest of the field to claim easy gold Play! 00:17

Silver medalist Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui, who got a bronze, have also faced questions about their testosterone levels in recent reports.

Sharp has more reason than most to understand the debate, having written a dissertation on the subject while studying law at Napier University.

She was forced to wipe away tears as she said after the race: “I have tried to avoid the issue all year. You can see how emotional it all was. We know how each other feels.

"It is out of our control and how much we rely on people at the top sorting it out. The public can see how difficult it is with the change of rule but all we can do is give it our best."

Sharp, 26, who ran a personal best 1min 57.69secs, hinted that her feelings are shared by fellow athletes Melissa Bishop of Canada and Poland’s Joanna Jozwik, who also missed out on medals.
Caster Semenya (R) of South Africa reacts next to Melissa Bishop (L) of Canada and Lynsey Sharp (C) of Britain after winning the women's 800m final of the Rio 2016 Olympic Games Athletics, Track and Field events at the Olympic Stadium in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, 20 August 2016.
Although achieving her personal best, Sharp came sixth in the 800m final Credit: EPA

The three hugged together after the finish in what Sharp said was a show of unity. “We see each other week in, week out, so we know how each other feel,” she said.

In a reference to questions surrounding the sex of other competitors, British 400m runner Nigel Levine tweeted afterwards: "Happy for @LynseySharp for coming 3rd in the women 800m."

However, Sharp later clarified her comments after facing criticism. She said in a statement on Twitter that "I have a tremendous amount of respect for Caster", before adding: "I gave an honest and diplomatic response."

Semenya, who reportedly has internal testes but no womb or ovaries due to an abnormality, has been dominating middle-distance running since a ruling which previously forced her to take drugs to cut her testosterone was overturned.

Last week, Sebastian Coe indicated the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) would challenge the Court of Arbitration ruling which suspended the monitoring of female athletes with higher than usual levels of testosterone.

But others have launched a #handsoffcaster campaign online as a human rights debate rages on her continued involvement.

Sharp has previously claimed it is an unfair advantage that everyone else has had to accept. “I’ve obviously known Caster since 2008," she said before Rio. "I did my dissertation on it at uni so I know a lot about the subject. But now is not the time to get involved in all that. I can’t do anything about that. It’s up to people higher up. Nothing’s going to change before the competition and it’s the situation we’re in.”

Before the Rio 2016 Olympic Games, Sharp told The Daily Telegraph, there were "obvious" athletes with heightened testosterone amid rumours that there were two more competitors were "intersex" in last night's final. “Everyone can see it’s two separate races so there’s nothing I can do,” she said earlier this summer.

Semenya, meanwhile, refused to discuss the issue which has dogged her since 2009, when she was forced to take a humiliating sex test three hours before she landed the world title.

In London 2012, Caster was forced to take testosterone-suppressing medication to comply with the rules of the athletics' world governing body, the IAAF. But last year, the Court of Arbitration for Sport suspended the IAAF's rules on hyperandrogenism for two years.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:23 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:50 pm 
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This has been making the SJW twitter rounds for a bit, so I'd like to point something out: "Intersex" is not an identity. It is a biological and anatomical condition wherein a human has both (or parts of both) male and female sex organs.

In the case of Caster Semenya, it has been widely rumored, though never "confirmed [to the moving goalposts of left-leaning media pundits]" that she (Semenya identifies as female) has undescended testes which are pumping out testosterone.

MANY are criticizing using (natural) testosterone levels as a de facto test of biological gender, with the asinine reasoning that it "defines womanhood, when being a woman is up to the special lotus flower to define blah blah blah..." completely missing the point that certain levels of natural testosterone can only be gained by having testes, thereby making the person in question not female. At any level of significance you want, the p-value of observing Semenya's testosterone levels in a biological female without the presence of testes is incomprehensibly small.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:40 pm 
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This is reminiscent of a famous case in harness racing:

http://www.drf.com/news/curious-case-martha-maxine

"TUCSON, Ariz. - As Rachel Alexandra rocketed through Belmont's long stretch last Saturday, en route to another runaway victory and destroying records set by the immortal Ruffian 34 years ago, it became apparent that those watching might be seeing the greatest filly of all time.

She may prove that later this summer, perhaps beating colts in the Haskell at Monmouth or Travers at Saratoga. Zenyatta will make an exceptional race and interesting test if that meeting materializes, but there are two full years between them and almost two full seconds between their performances at 1 1/8 miles last weekend. Eleven wins in California do not equate to winning the Preakness against the best colts of her generation.

While this drama unfolds, there is a truly bizarre case in harness racing involving one of the nation's top pacing fillies who turned out to be a colt. The case is so strange that it intrigued even the skilled hands at the University of Pennsylvania's New Bolton Center.

The pacer's name is Martha Maxine, and she/he had won 5 of 11 races and $249,975 this year and 13 of 20 and $193,891 last year, before a post-race anabolic steroid test revealed abnormally high readings for the male hormone testosterone. A model of consistency, the pacer finished first, second, or third 10 times in the 11 starts this year and 19 times first, second, or third in 20 starts last year, earning $451,815 racing against - and beating - the best fillies in the sport.

On the strength of the anabolic steroid test findings, Martha Maxine wound up at the clinic of New Jersey veterinarian Dr. Patricia Hogan. Hogan works with both harness horses and Thoroughbreds and is well known in both sports. She is married to a top harness trainer, Ed Lohmeyer.

Hogan quickly determined that Martha Maxine had ambiguous external genitalia, indicating an intersex condition, and recommended further testing at New Bolton. There, the pacer underwent rigorous tests of blood, hair, genitalia, endocrine, ultrasound of abdominal contents, exposure and responses to mares in laboratory and pasture, overall behavior, and chromosome evaluation. It was determined that Martha Maxine was a male pseudohermaphrodite.

Following that evidence, New Bolton informed the trainer - Erv Miller of Illinois, the leading harness racing trainer in the United States last year - that Martha Maxine was not a filly or mare, but a male horse.


On the basis of these findings, the United States Trotting Association, breed registry of the sport, notified Miller and Martha Maxine's owners and other agencies that the horse was reclassified as a male.

Martha Maxine immediately became ineligible for filly and mare races and now may race only against male horses and geldings, or in open events. Her registration papers and past performances must include the line "Martha Maxine has been determined to be a genetic male and is not suitable for breeding purposes." The nearly half-million she has won remains with her owners, the Ervin Miller stable in Springfield, Ill., Tony Alagna of Sorrento, Fla., and Brittany Farms of Versailles, Ky., one of the major harness racing breeding operations in the world.

An interesting sidebar to the story: Before the official discovery of Martha Maxine's gender, a close relative, the former Arizona Helen, also raced and won $169,546 as a pacing filly. After winning two races at Harrah's Chester Casino and Racetrack just south of Philadelphia last winter, she too tested positive for high testosterone levels. Her trainer, Rich Belach, insisted she had not been given steroids.

Like Martha Maxine later, she wound up first at Hogan's clinic for examination and then was sent on to New Bolton, where her high testosterone levels were explained. While she had the outward appearance of a female, ultrasound examination revealed no uterus or ovaries but two internal gonads having the appearance of testicles. New Bolton said Arizona Helen is a genetic male with incomplete masculinization of the external genitalia. He too has been reclassified by the USTA and must race against males and geldings, or in open company, with a notation that he is unsuitable for breeding.

Arizona Helen's dam, Bret's Excellence, was a daughter of the world champion Bret Hanover. Bret's Excellence is the second dam of Martha Maxine. Arizona Helen's grandsire, Abercrombie, one of the sport's greatest sires, also is the great grandsire of Martha Maxine. Although the condition of these two is rare, and scientists do not know the cause of intersex horses, it appears it is an inheritable defect. The New Bolton vets called the cases "unusual and interesting." No word that the owners and trainers agree."


Nobody made the owners give the money back. And nobody will make these men give their medals back.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:58 pm 
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I bet that if people cared about women's sports, this would be a big deal.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:22 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
I bet that if people cared about women's sports, this would be a big deal.


It should be.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:28 pm 
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I'd be into inter-sex if it weren't so regulated by the government.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:36 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
I'd be into inter-sex if it weren't so regulated by the government.


I imagine the ladies above would love for you to run in them.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:50 pm 
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Nas wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I bet that if people cared about women's sports, this would be a big deal.


It should be.


Honestly, the world is so weird, I don't know what I think anymore. What is a woman? What is a man?

I think I'll probably just slink into total solitude and vote for Trump.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:54 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I bet that if people cared about women's sports, this would be a big deal.


It should be.


Honestly, the world is so weird, I don't know what I think anymore. What is a woman? What is a man?

I think I'll probably just slink into total solitude and vote for Trump.


That's what's best for you, believe me.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:59 pm 
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I don't understand this. It should be simple. If you have 2-3x the testosterone of other competitors, you're disqualified. Why is this a thing?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:59 pm 
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Kind of man > any woman.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:01 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
I don't understand this. It should be simple. If you have 2-3x the testosterone of other competitors, you're disqualified. Why is this a thing?


So, no joke, we are eventually moving toward eliminating male/female and competing based on your testosterone level?

Gold Medalist in the High Testosterone Level...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:03 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I don't understand this. It should be simple. If you have 2-3x the testosterone of other competitors, you're disqualified. Why is this a thing?


So, no joke, we are eventually moving toward eliminating male/female and competing based on your testosterone level?

Gold Medalist in the High Testosterone Level...

Best Hot Hatch in the low testosterone level....

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:03 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I don't understand this. It should be simple. If you have 2-3x the testosterone of other competitors, you're disqualified. Why is this a thing?


So, no joke, we are eventually moving toward eliminating male/female and competing based on your testosterone level?

Gold Medalist in the High Testosterone Level...

Best Hot Hatch in the low testosterone level....

:lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:06 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Gold Medalist in the High Testosterone Level...
Jake Arrieta.

And :lol: Rick

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:12 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
I don't understand this. It should be simple. If you have 2-3x the testosterone of other competitors, you're disqualified. Why is this a thing?


Initially. I thought the same thing... but if you think about it... if they don't have balls, how can they regulate various hormones? What about epinephrine and dopamine, etc.?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:14 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I don't understand this. It should be simple. If you have 2-3x the testosterone of other competitors, you're disqualified. Why is this a thing?


Initially. I thought the same thing... but if you think about it... if they don't have balls, how can they regulate various hormones? What about epinephrine and dopamine, etc.?

I don't know. I have no idea how all that shit works. But it's simply unfair and unethical from a competitive standpoint to allow this in Olympic competition.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:15 pm 
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If you were born male you shouldn't be able to compete in a female sport.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:17 pm 
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Is "its" name pronounced "Semen yeah"?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:18 pm 
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Nas wrote:
If you were born male you shouldn't be able to compete in a female sport.


They were born men?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:32 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
If you were born male you shouldn't be able to compete in a female sport.


They were born men?


Male genetalia + Male chromosomes + Male testosterone levels = Male

I think male genetalia requires male chromosomes (though I could be wrong), and male genetalia begotten from male chromosomes likely results in testosterone levels approaching the "Male" range.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:37 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
If you were born male you shouldn't be able to compete in a female sport.


They were born men?


I think so, they just appear female on the surface, just like the horse Martha Maxine.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:38 pm 
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:lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:41 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I bet that if people cared about women's sports, this would be a big deal.


It should be.


Honestly, the world is so weird, I don't know what I think anymore. What is a woman? What is a man?




LEBOWSKI:
Funny-- I can look back on a life
of achievement, on challenges met,
competitors bested, obstacles
overcome. I've accomplished more
than most men, and without the use
of my legs. What. . . What makes a
man, Mr. Lebowski?

DUDE:
Dude.

LEBOWSKI:
Huh?

DUDE:
Uh, I, I don't know, sir.

LEBOWSKI:
Is it being prepared to do the
right thing? Whatever the cost?
Isn't that what makes a man?

DUDE:
Ummm..sure. That and a pair of testicles.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:21 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
If you were born male you shouldn't be able to compete in a female sport.


They were born men?


I think so, they just appear female on the surface

You see the photos in the OP?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:33 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
If you were born male you shouldn't be able to compete in a female sport.


They were born men?


I think so, they just appear female on the surface

You see the photos in the OP?


:lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:12 am 
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There are a ton of SJW articles declaring that people are being sexist, racist, etc. for questioning Caster. It has gotten the Emperors' New Clothes levels of ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:56 am 
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So are they hermaphrodites or not?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:59 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
So are they hermaphrodites or not?



I believe the accurate term for them is male pseudohermaphrodite.

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