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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:19 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Nas wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Nas wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I'm not in favor of abolishing the police, but it's not the radical, ridiculous idea that it's being made to be. MANY have proposed similar things before.


Spoke with JORR offline about this and I have a better understanding of what he's saying and generally agree with it.



Who bought the drinks?


What's the difference between Lincoln Park and Englewood? Why do you think there is more crime in one in comparison to the other? How do the police interact with the residents of both communities? What's the police presence like in both? Which community do you feel safer in?


Most board members couldn't find Englewood with a GPS.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:51 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
beni hanna wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-violence-labor-day-tuesday-20160906-story.html

Top cop after violent holiday weekend: 'It's not a police issue, it's a society issue'

After another violent holiday weekend, Chicago police Superintendent Eddie Johnson said Tuesday his department is doing all it can to combat violence rooted in "impoverished neighborhoods" where "people without hope do these kinds of things."

"It's not a police issue, it's a society issue," Johnson told reporters outside police headquarters after a long weekend that saw 65 people shot, 13 of them fatally.


Getting rid of the cops will make it all better... :oops:


I doubt it would make it worse. People would likely accept more responsibility. There's too much trust in government.


:lol: No way you truly believe this. How does one accept more responsibility when those causing the carnage have no responsibility? Those committing heinous acts benefit from lawlessness. GenPop is not going to arm themselves to defend against what is going on right now. Shit, most folks can't afford the firepower. Most folks cannot get their kids into job programs (pick your reasoning) to keep them out of harm's way.

Please provide additional explanation how this additional responsibility is going to work.

I can accept a lack of trust in government. I cannot accept a lack of government benefits those that are most at risk. I have no solution, or I would provide it to be pilloried by all.

Edit--It is not just gangs for those with racial bias. MANY ethnic groups have significant mob activity who would have a field day if there were no government agency to at least knock them back a peg no and then. In terms of city history, I wonder what year we would find ourselves living in? Pre or post Haymarket? With automatic weapons, lightening communication and ease of travel within the U.S. and abroad.



There weren't always police forces, you know. People didn't rely on them. I don't think they do as much as you think anyway. They largely exist to create revenue.


I somewhat agree with this. I generally view police who give out tickets all day as bad police officers. I largely only gave out tickets too people for probable cause because it led to something else, or the person was being a dick. Now we have QUOTAS to work overtime, I have been giving out a lot more tickets. Something I'm not very proud of. I understand traffic enforcement and keeping speeding to a minimum but I really don't even know how safe it really keeps people.

I think writing a ticket to someone who is a decent citizen is pretty shitty when I'd much rather have my police patrolling my neighborhood. I knew these 3 BLACK police officers where I use to work who would write everyone and their mother tickets. They'd bring women with children into the station. I understand they're suspended, but really man? I always thought it was really shity.


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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:35 pm 
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It would stand to REASON that if violent crime/crime in general decreases by X% in an area/town/whatever that you could start to reduce the amount of law enforcement.
If crime goes down as standards of living go up than I believe you could, slowly, begin that with that caveat that concealed carry be allowed.

I mean, the police really don't stop anyone from robbing my house or assaulting people on the street or whatever...they are there for the cleanup. If you have someone in your home and call the cops they're gonna tell you, in so many words, that you're on your own. Unless you tell them that you have a gun, then they will come a runnin'.


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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:11 am 
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Kass trying to rile people up on Chicago shootings: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/colu ... olumn.html

Police get a pass for not being willing to "engage" because they don't want to be on video? Huh?

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:30 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Kass trying to rile people up on Chicago shootings: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/colu ... olumn.html

Police get a pass for not being willing to "engage" because they don't want to be on video? Huh?



I think to be a police officer you have to consider yourself the "good guy". And if that's how you see yourself, it's not much of a stretch to justify any action you take as "good". Of course, there's a lot more gray in the world than that.

It makes me think of the movie, Unforgiven. I've had arguments about whether or not it's a western. It looks like a western on the surface. But it really isn't one. When we talk about the western as a genre, it's called a western simply because that was the setting for the originals, but "western" isn't really about the setting. It's about clear good guys vs. bad guys. Star Wars is a western set in space. I'm sure most of us were rooting for Will Munny in Unforgiven. But he was the bad guy, wasn't he? Wasn't Little Bill the good guy?

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:46 am 
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You want a lesson on community policing watch High Noon.

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:14 am 
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So according to Kass, murders are less than 30 years ago because of better medical technology, not because of less attempts to murder.

3400 attempted murders in Chicago this year. That number is beyond stunning.

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:20 pm 
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What was JORR saying about Irvine?
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-framed/

Quote:
They had worked quietly for weeks, watching the Easters, learning their habits, and now the detectives were prepared to move. Early on the morning of March 4, 2011, a small army of Irvine police — nearly two dozen — gathered at the station to rehearse the plan. They would serve search warrants simultaneously at Kent Easter’s Newport Beach office and at the couple’s home.


Well done police. The citizens of Irvine are glad they have you!

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:21 pm 
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:lol:

I thought of this thread too when I saw that in Magary's column.

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:02 pm 
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http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-black-b ... 1473631079

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:05 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-black-body-count-rises-as-chicago-police-step-back-1473631079


Was tempted to post that.....but didn't want to shake the hornet's nest. Thanks for doing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:08 pm 
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/laqu ... story.html

Well no shit they covered up...

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:10 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-black-body-count-rises-as-chicago-police-step-back-1473631079


Was tempted to post that.....but didn't want to shake the hornet's nest. Thanks for doing it.



The police are "stepping back"? That isn't an argument against abolishing them.

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:12 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-black-body-count-rises-as-chicago-police-step-back-1473631079


Was tempted to post that.....but didn't want to shake the hornet's nest. Thanks for doing it.


I'm sure many will say "Too bad. Do your job." But it really isn't worth it to stop and move people from corners anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:13 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-black-body-count-rises-as-chicago-police-step-back-1473631079


Was tempted to post that.....but didn't want to shake the hornet's nest. Thanks for doing it.



The police are "stepping back"? That isn't an argument against abolishing them.


Nah but it was the most recent police-related thread I could find.

Other than Nazi cop.

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:17 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-black-body-count-rises-as-chicago-police-step-back-1473631079


Was tempted to post that.....but didn't want to shake the hornet's nest. Thanks for doing it.


Beyond getting sued and punished by your own department, it has also become very unsafe doing street stops.
I'm sure many will say "Too bad. Do your job." But it really isn't worth it to stop and move people from corners anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:23 pm 
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McDude,

Thank you for what you do. You are on the front lines daily dealing with a heap of problems that society has tossed into your lap. Be safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:29 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-black-body-count-rises-as-chicago-police-step-back-1473631079

Subscribe to read an entire article at the WSJ website? Hahahaha right. Print media in the digital age is adorable

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:39 pm 
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need to jump from news.google.com or even twitter.com to circumvent wsj's paywall:

click the link in this tweet,
https://twitter.com/charjorgensen13/status/775467908910592000

or go to http://news.google.com and drop that wsj url in the search and it'll come up in the results, click it from there
and you should get the full text, no paywall nag.


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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:08 pm 
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Hussra wrote:
need to jump from news.google.com or even twitter.com to circumvent wsj's paywall:

click the link in this tweet,
https://twitter.com/charjorgensen13/status/775467908910592000

or go to http://news.google.com and drop that wsj url in the search and it'll come up in the results, click it from there
and you should get the full text, no paywall nag.

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:39 am 
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sto ... 7a687f7b43

Maybe JORR was right...

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:41 pm 
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[video is in the link]
https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/police-accidentally-record-themselves-conspiring-fabricate-criminal-charges-against

Police Accidentally Record Themselves Conspiring to Fabricate Criminal Charges Against Protester


The ACLU of Connecticut is suing state police for fabricating retaliatory criminal charges against a protester after troopers were recorded discussing how to trump up charges against him. In what seems like an unlikely stroke of cosmic karma, the recording came about after a camera belonging to the protester, Michael Picard, was illegally seized by a trooper who didn’t know that it was recording and carried it back to his patrol car, where it then captured the troopers’ plotting.

“Let’s give him something,” one trooper declared. Another suggested, “we can hit him with creating a public disturbance.” “Gotta cover our ass,” remarked a third.

ACLU affiliates around the country have done a lot of cases defending the right to record in public places, but this case (press release, complaint) is particularly striking. I spoke to ACLU of Connecticut Legal Director Dan Barrett, and he told me about how the incident came about:

Our client is a guy who is very concerned with privacy, and who protests DUI checkpoints around the capital region here in Hartford, Connecticut. He feels they’re both unconstitutional and a waste of money. He has done public records investigations, for example, and recently found that for every two man hours put into a check point, it yields just one minor traffic citation—almost always for defective equipment. He was well known to the police, who also knew that he is a peaceful privacy and open-carry gun rights activist.

So Michael was out on Sept. 11, 2015 in West Hartford. He shows up, has a big sign that says “cops ahead, remain silent.” It’s handwritten—this is not threatening stuff. He stood on a small triangular traffic island. He was standing there for an hour, hour and a half without any problems. Then, the state police officers who were working the checkpoint come over to Michael, and the first thing they do is slap the camera out of his hand so it hits the ground. He thinks it’s broken.

It was really brazen. There’s another video showing that the first thing the state trooper does is walk up and with his open hand slap the camera down to the ground. He doesn’t even say anything like “put that down,” or “please lower your camera.” He just slaps it to the ground. Then he interacts with Michael as if nothing happened, as if, “I’m just allowed to do that, and I don’t even have to tell you why I just broke your camera.” It’s an amazing level of hostility.

The troopers search Michael, and theatrically announce that he has a gun—which they knew he had, and which he was carrying legally under Connecticut’s open carry law. So they take his gun, and they go run his pistol permit. As they’re doing that, Michael picks the camera up off the pavement—it’s a nice SLR that can also record video. He picks it up and tries to turn it on as one of the cops walks back over, and that’s where the video starts. The cop announces that “taking my picture is illegal.” Michael debates with him a little because he’s very knowledgeable about the law and the First Amendment, and the end result is that the trooper snatches the camera, walks away, and puts it on top of the cruiser, without realizing that it is working and is recording video.


This is the point at which the troopers’ accidental self-surveillance begins. Barrett continues:

So we get the three troopers at the cruiser talking about what to do. Michael’s permit comes back as valid, they say “oh crap,” and one of the troopers says “we gotta punch a number on this guy,” which means open an investigation in the police database. And he says “we really gotta cover our asses.” And then they have a very long discussion about what to charge Michael with—none of which appear to have any basis in fact. This plays out over eight minutes. They talk about “we could do this, we could do this, we could do this….”

In Connecticut, police officers have clear requirements under the law to intervene and stop or prevent constitutional violations when they see them. But at no time did any of the three officers pipe up and say, “why don’t we just give him his camera back and let him go.”

In the end they decide on two criminal infractions: “reckless use of a highway by a pedestrian,” and “creating a public disturbance.” They have a chilling discussion on how to support the public disturbance charge, and the top-level supervisor explains to the other two, “what we say is that multiple motorists stopped to complain about a guy waving a gun around, but none of them wanted to stop and make a statement.” In other words, what sounds like a fairy tale.

The tickets they gave him started a criminal prosecution in the Connecticut superior court. Eventually the state dismissed first one then the other count, though it took a whole year for him to disentangle himself from the criminal justice system.

Meanwhile, Michael filed a complaint with the state police. They claimed they couldn’t do their internal investigation without interviewing Michael. They kept calling Michael directly—and they did that even though there were criminal charges pending and Michael had a criminal defense lawyer. His lawyer kept calling them and saying “don’t you ever call my client again, you have to talk to me.” But they continued to try and get Michael to come in and be interviewed without his lawyer, claiming that they couldn’t do the investigation unless Michael gave a statement. It was unbelievable—this is an interaction that was recorded from start to finish on high-quality digital video. A year later there has been zero movement on the internal affairs investigation as far as anyone knows, which just shows that police and prosecutors in Connecticut should not be in charge of policing themselves.


As a result of the police’s clear inability to police themselves, the only avenue left for Picard and the ACLU of Connecticut is a lawsuit. That lawsuit is based on three claims, as Barrett laid out for me:

The first claim is the violation of Michael’s right to record—the efforts to prevent Michael from recording what was happening. That includes the fact that they swatted his camera and attempted to break it, and took it away, and they also tried to block him from taking photos of the license plates on the police cruiser using his cell phone after his camera was taken.

The second count is a Fourth Amendment claim: the seizure of Michael’s camera without probable cause to believe that it contained evidence of a crime, or a warrant for its seizure. The police cannot grab people’s property and confiscate it on a whim.

The third is a First Amendment retaliation claim. Whether it was because he was carrying a sign criticizing the police, because he was recording the police, because they just didn’t like him, or all of the above, it really appears from the evidence that they completely manufactured criminal charges against Michael.

If Michael had been just jotting down license plate numbers with a pen and pad and the troopers had taken it, or slapped the pen out of his hand saying “you’re not allowed to write down our license plate numbers,” everyone would recognize how ridiculous the situation was. And if the defendants had been any other kind of state or local employee—if they had been a road crew, and Michael had wanted to film them paving, and they had forced him to stop recording, their actions wouldn’t get any serious consideration by a court. Nothing about the defendants here being police makes their actions any more defensible. All Michael was doing was recording state employees doing their jobs on a public street.


The really interesting thing about this case is not just that the state troopers were so openly hostile to being recorded, or to anyone seeing what they were up to, but also that they appear to have had a very frank discussion inside the cruiser about how to punish somebody who was protesting them.
It’s surprising that we are still regularly hearing about incidents in which police are not respecting the constitutional right to record in public. But to hear police officers casually discussing the fabrication of criminal charges to retaliate against a protester is even more shocking. As Barrett put it to me, “It’s one of those things that on your darker days you may think happens all the time, but you never really thought there’d be a video recording of.”

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:33 am 
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This morning I was stopped at a red light on my bike. An Evanston cop made a right turn on red around me. Forget about shooting people, these guys are so sloppy and undisciplined they can't even follow simple traffic laws. If the people who are supposed to be enforcing the laws don't even follow them, what is the point of having them?

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:43 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
This morning I was stopped at a red light on my bike. An Evanston cop made a right turn on red around me. Forget about shooting people, these guys are so sloppy and undisciplined they can't even follow simple traffic laws. If the people who are supposed to be enforcing the laws don't even follow them, what is the point of having them?


Who watches the watchmen? You see cops doing whatever they want all the time while driving. U-Turns. Driving on the side of the road. Speeding.

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 Post subject: Re: Abolish the Police
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:44 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
This morning I was stopped at a red light on my bike. An Evanston cop made a right turn on red around me. Forget about shooting people, these guys are so sloppy and undisciplined they can't even follow simple traffic laws. If the people who are supposed to be enforcing the laws don't even follow them, what is the point of having them?


Who watches the watchmen? You see cops doing whatever they want all the time while driving. U-Turns. Driving on the side of the road. Speeding.


My favorite has always been the "flick the cherries on so you can run a red light" play. Put them on for 4 seconds and then they go off. Poof! Just like that!


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