Here's the quote that explains our philosophical difference, FF:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I don't think our government - or any organization - has that much to hide because they are run by the same motherfuckers who can't run a credit card at Walgreens. I don't have enough respect for them to believe they have some deep secrets.

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I agree for the most part. Doesn't excuse a widespread illegal surveillance program. You guys can go ahead and call this reductionist or whatever but it really does come down to privacy, not the government. Either you feel like we all have a right to a very basic level of privacy(4th amendment, etc), or you think "if you ain't got nothin to hide, you ain't got nothing to worry about". If there's a middle ground, feel free to explain it.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Also still waiting for ANY evidence showing Snowden put our national security or troops in danger. The man is a fucking hero and has just as much courage as Dakota Meyer.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

It's commonsense. I'm guessing that you are cool with all the Russian hacking too.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

It's fucking commonsense he gave Russia and probably China something valuable.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I wasn't even getting that granular with it. I definitely don't believe in any type of surveillance program. I guess I just think it's probably not that effective, anyway. I don't know... I'm probably naive, but the government scares me less than it used to because I see the people who are employed by the government. And with that, I see no value in giving information to foreign governments. They are probably also run by morons, but they're not our morons.

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Still waiting.....

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I am reminded of Three Days of the Condor. Last scene addresses your point. Good flick if you have 90 minutes.

great movie. it's a shame movies like that and "the conversation" don't get more play.

It is something that you are born with and something that I am positive you have.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

As a random follow up post, and not to derail this thread...

Network is an awesome flick. Frightening how close to reality that damned movie came to what happened with television news services. The whole 'I'm mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore' is drowned out by the realities of corporate tv in the modern world.

W_Z et al. can take it from here on the specifics of my accuracy and or missteps in analyzing said flick.
Edit - I was not aware W_Z would comment immediately. I am not currying favor here. Just hitting up a CFMBer that follows movies more than I.

paddy chayefsky is one of the great screenwriters of all time. in fact, i don't like calling him a "screenwriter" because he really transcended the medium. even though not a filmmaker, he'd qualify as an auteur in my book. directors loved his work. he was probably the last of that era, and died too young.

"network" is an absolute classic--one of those movies you need to watch every few years to remind you of that fact.

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

1976 might be the best field for Best Picture of all time: Taxi Driver, Network, All the President's Men, Rocky, and Bound for Glory. It should have been Network, and that's saying a lot considering Taxi Driver and the one that did win.

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A true hero would not have fled to Russia where he supposedly lives a good life and clearly helps them with some things.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Panther has been snowed in MANY times.

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He'd be a true hero if he'd stuck around to be tortured by the CIA and tossed into a cell in Guantanamo until he " hung" himself?

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So in that report this is a lie?

First, Snowden caused tremendous damage to national security, and the vast
majority ofthe documents he stole have nothing to do with programs impacting individual
privacy interests-they instead pertain to military, defense? and intelligence programs of
great interest to America,s adversaries. A review ofthe materials Snowden compromised
makes clear that he handed over secrets that protect American troops overseas and secrets that
provide vital defienses against terrorists and nation-states.

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Elections have consequences.

Yes, though with how public he became immediately I doubt they could have gotten away with that.

It's certainly better than going to work for Russia(who basically invented surveillance against it's own citizens).

Return to America and let this be the next trial of the century.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yes, I believe it's a lie. The government has been caught lying many times. Snowden has never been caught lying.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

PM,

Where is there a shred of evidence that any of the government's claims contain even a ounce of truth?

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faye dunaway was hot, too

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MANY: I trust the honest guy that stole government secrets and fled to China and Russia. Show me evidence!

PM: Here you go!

MANY: I don't believe any of it because it came from the lying government. You need another source!

Me: Are there any Snowden's in China or Russia?

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

We have ZERO evidence that he caused damage to national security. Other than the government told so...

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Wouldn't it also be common sense that our Government would lie to discredit him?

Is stretching the truth considered lying?

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

It is now for sure.

China and Russia have obviously hacked the shit of many systems in this country.

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Yes the guy who couldn't even complete an enlistment in the Army reserve is as courageous as an MOH recipient, for fleeing to a known antagonist of human rights and other nations sovereignty. GTFO

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Saw this last night. Good film. Shailene Woodley would totally get it. Heard a husband tell his wife on the way out of the theatre that Snowden should be shot if he gets back here. Should be given a pardon imho.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.