That's all theoretical. Who knows what happens if they have a competitive payroll? Probably nothing, but who knows? They likely would have been better.

And here's where it gets sticky. If you have a philosophy like I do that good baseball is better than bad baseball and championships aren't all that matter, it's hard to argue for tanking. You can't really argue both ways. An 83 win team is a lot more fun to watch than a 70 win team.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

I agree with your statement that you can't trade ten playoff seasons for a championship. It's not a bargain to be made. It doesn't work like that.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Also, it's easy for a guy like Epstein to say, "There's no glory in winning 80 games." He hasn't paid for a ticket in many years. If you're making a commitment to buy tickets, it does make a difference. I've watched 70 win teams and 80 wins teams and there's a big difference. Sure, the TV fan can just click over to Monster Garage and Chopped for a few seasons and then return if and when they're good.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

If I'm a fan of TV, why don't I ever watch baseball?

As a Cub fan, who gives a fuck about some other 1/4 of the teams in baseball? Those fans can worry if tanking works or not or it's good for baseball. Having 1/4 of the teams suck on purpose isn't any worse for baseball than 1/4 of the teams patronizing their fans by acting like "well we signed some old free agents and if things break just right for us I think we can be wild card contenders, buy some tickets!" when there's no chance they will be and then they either sell-off by June or make shitty trades in July to keep the illusion going that they're competing and at the end of it all, all you've done is wasted a season treading water.

As a Cubs fan that attends many games each season, I can assure you there is no big difference between 70 and 80.

I'd rather have five seasons of winning 60 something games in order to guarantee (as well as you can guarantee) MANY straight postseason appearances to follow those losing seasons.

There is nothing to be gained from mediocrity.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

As someone's who has popped for the full MLB.TV package for the last 5 so I can watch one of my favorite TV shows, it was great for when the Cubs sucked just to be able to turn on some other good game instead.

truth

There's 2,430+ games in a season. Blech.

The goal of the season is a championship. You can enjoy the season that leads up to the playoffs, but never winning a title is a failure IMO.

Otherwise who cares about World Series titles. Just judge a team by having the most successful regular season.

And of course the "10 playoffs for 1 World Series" talk is hypothetical. It's all just wasting time til Friday.

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When you tear down the organeyezation as the Cubs did, remodel the stadium, take over parts of the neighborhood they are in, then yes all that matters is a Championship...when looking at the big picture. Do you think Theo was brought over here simply to make the playoffs a few times? Hardly.

In a vacuum of each individual season, sure the 2016 regular season for the Cubs has been spectacular, one of the best in Chicago baseball history. The Cubs were a unfathomable 97 win 3rd place team last year. Though they went out with a resounding thud in the NLCS, 2015 was also pretty spectacular for them. They won 100some games this year. As a Cubs fan posted just a couple weeks ago, "I am ready for Spring Training to be over." That implies that this season was at least a bit meaningless and that the playoffs are the only thing that matters. Its strange because that is both right and wrong.

If Theo is here for 5, 6, 7+ more years and does not win a World Series title, it will be a failure. I suppose if the Cubs played in at least 2, but probably 3 World Series and lost them all, you could make a compelling case that his tenure was not a failure. But the title trumps everything. Whether the Cubs have sustained success or not doesn't matter. If the Cubs win a title, nobody will care if it was "fluky" or the result of building a dynasty in the NL Central. On paper, sure the Cubs are set up to be good next year, the year after, and probably for at least a year or two after that. However, that does not mean that they will make the playoffs. Hell they might not make it again under Theo. I would say that is pretty unlikely, but its possible. The two time defending AL Champs are watching this year's playoffs on TV.


IMU, there is a big difference between a 71 win team and an 81 win team. Just like there is a big difference between an 85 win team and a 95 win team. You are wrong stating what you did.

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The entire structure of any sport is based on competition. I don't think it's "patronizing" for a team to attempt to put a watchable product on the field.

And of course you care. That's how your team won 103 games. There are those here who try to diminish the difference between the leagues this season with several more teams tanking in the NL, but the truth is the Red Sox played 100 or so games vs. teams with .500+ records and the Cubs played about 50.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Baseball is on TV, but it's not a TV show. Enjoy the NFL on Fox.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Of course you're entitled to your opinion. But there is a big difference between winning 70 and winning 80. And the attendance and TV ratings will illustrate that more fans agree with me. An eighty win team is generally a watchable product. A 70 win team is just fucking depressing. Nobody tries to be mediocre. But many teams- following Theo's model- are trying to be atrocious.

And you probably wouldn't go to many games during those 60 win seasons. And that's the point. Somebody has to go to the games or tanking doesn't work. Everybody just wants it to be somebody else.

Where leash and I disagree on this, is that once the Cubs- or any other team- make the call to purposely tank seasons, then winning a World Series becomes an imperative. You've consciously decided to make a trade off, to play bad baseball for a long stretch to chase a goal, rather than try to consistently put the best possible product on the field every year.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

No, it is a tanking. The creator of the current form of this management philosophy now decries it as being bad for baseball and would like it addressed by the league offices.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Jeff Luhnow?

Those were shots?

Seemed more like a peck on the cheek

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

you know, not luhnow

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

What MANY subdivision fans ignore or refuse to acknowledge is JERRY is main reason as to why tanking has become so popular. Jerry has always refused to spend money in the draft. His drive to ensure draft picks and international free agents weren't eligible for a fair market wage are what's led to tanking being so appealing.

So don't cry over Cubs/Brewers/Phillies/Braves etc doing what they're doing. Look at your own scumbag first.

Have you seen the "support" JR receives in the Sox section?

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I see MANY posts about the travesty of the Cubs discarding 3 sacred seasons. And yet here we sit after 5 years of the two biggest bargains in baseball with Chris Sale and Jose Qiuntana with zero playoff appearances because jerry refuses to open the checkbook.

All the needling of Cubs methods is a huge deflection from addressing the shitshow on the Southside.

I take it you forgot to log in as SLUMLORD?

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Hating the Cubs is a part time job

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Jerry has opened his checkbook MANY times. Dunn, LaRoche, Robertson, etc. It has not been money well spent or wisely spent, but this notion that Jerry will not spend money on the Sox is completely false.

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Incorrect.

While they're not splurging at Dollar Tree the Sox are shopping at Target when they have the means for Oak Street. This is especially egregious when you have the two biggest bargains in baseball.

No, it is correct. Jerry has spent MANY dollars on the Sox. I just gave you three names and over $120 million dollars that has been spent just in the last few seasons.

Since 2005, the Sox have been in the top 10 in payroll 7 times.
http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm

Edit; Sorry, 6 times. In 2009, they were 11th.

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Good response. I guess that the 80 win team might better "fool fans" into thinking they are a contending team, therefore worthy of their attention for a longer period of time. But ultimately, a 70 or 80 win team will leave the fan with a similar sense of disappointment. I recognized (as most did) that Theo was going to trade off players that would not be a part of "the plan" moving forward, build the farm system and develop draft picks and young players they traded for. They did a great job executing the plan and now they have a team poised to compete for World Series titles for years to come.

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Go Cubs!!!!

Shut up.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

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