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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:52 am 
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Either indict or don't indict but sending out caveats at this stage of the game is ludicrous. They have been on this for over a year. It's not hard if they have something.


They don't have anything they can take to court but there is a lot there.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:52 am 
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It's a pissing match between the Justice Department and FBI investigators. Comey is caught in the middle. There are several good articles out on there on the internal politics of the entire investigation. Justice has limited the scope of the FBI's authority's to investigate the Clintons. The FBI agents are pissed at being held back from doing their jobs. The comment that Comey is tired of agent resignation letters piling up on his desk is quite instructive.

Sadly, the entire thing just shows that we are destined to have a tainted President regardless of who wins.

#JohnnyBeGoodKasich

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:55 am 
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Things get too hot, Obama will pardon her. Maybe even this week.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:55 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Let's not be naive. Clearly his cryptic statement was meant to influence it. My belief is he feels like he got worked by the Clintons and this is his way of getting them back.
So the FBI is trying to rig the election?


Director Comey and anyone with a functioning brain knows that a statement like that will influence the election when it is put out a little over a week before an election.
I agree but calling for the FBI director to be arrested is very Trump-like.


I think I read what he did is illegal. IF that's why they're saying that then it's different. If not then it isn't.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:58 am 
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Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Let's not be naive. Clearly his cryptic statement was meant to influence it. My belief is he feels like he got worked by the Clintons and this is his way of getting them back.
So the FBI is trying to rig the election?


Director Comey and anyone with a functioning brain knows that a statement like that will influence the election when it is put out a little over a week before an election.
I agree but calling for the FBI director to be arrested is very Trump-like.


I think I read what he did is illegal. IF that's why they're saying that then it's different. If not then it isn't.


My read was that it was against "guidelines" or "protocol" or tradition but not criminal.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:58 am 
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Nas wrote:
I think I read what he did is illegal. IF that's why they're saying that then it's different. If not then it isn't.
That law seems pretty bad though.

I mean, couldn't Trump also say he was attempting to influence the election by saying that she shouldn't be charged? No matter what he was going to influence this election.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:01 am 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So now Hillary and her crew want the FBI director arrested. This is Trump-level idiocy.


When he originally refused to prosecute, the same people called him a great public servant with unquestionable integrity.

I think it's hilarious that Clinton calls Comey's action "unprecedented". Of course it's unprecedented. Someone as corrupt as she is running for president doesn't happen all that often. Will it be better if all her misdeeds are revealed after she is elected?


From what I'm reading it sounds like there is nothing. There is a personal computer that Anthony Wiener has and they want to check it to see if Huma used it or not.

Why not get a warrant for it and see what's on it? Why didn't they get the computer when they were investigating Hillary and everyone else? Waiting 10 days before an election to send out a cryptic message seems political and it appears to be illegal.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:02 am 
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denisdman wrote:
It's a pissing match between the Justice Department and FBI investigators. Comey is caught in the middle. There are several good articles out on there on the internal politics of the entire investigation. Justice has limited the scope of the FBI's authority's to investigate the Clintons. The FBI agents are pissed at being held back from doing their jobs. The comment that Comey is tired of agent resignation letters piling up on his desk is quite instructive.

Sadly, the entire thing just shows that we are destined to have a tainted President regardless of who wins.

#JohnnyBeGoodKasich


Oh the great Kasich, who finished 4th in the primaries. If only we could go back to the Bush years, because that's what we are all yearning for. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/joh ... 10-issues/

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:12 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Let's not be naive. Clearly his cryptic statement was meant to influence it. My belief is he feels like he got worked by the Clintons and this is his way of getting them back.
So the FBI is trying to rig the election?


Director Comey and anyone with a functioning brain knows that a statement like that will influence the election when it is put out a little over a week before an election.
I agree but calling for the FBI director to be arrested is very Trump-like.


I think I read what he did is illegal. IF that's why they're saying that then it's different. If not then it isn't.


My read was that it was against "guidelines" or "protocol" or tradition but not criminal.


Yeah I just heard Bill Weld explain it.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bill-weld-ca ... 14001.html

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:15 am 
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denisdman wrote:
It's a pissing match between the Justice Department and FBI investigators. Comey is caught in the middle. There are several good articles out on there on the internal politics of the entire investigation. Justice has limited the scope of the FBI's authority's to investigate the Clintons. The FBI agents are pissed at being held back from doing their jobs. The comment that Comey is tired of agent resignation letters piling up on his desk is quite instructive.

Sadly, the entire thing just shows that we are destined to have a tainted President regardless of who wins.

#JohnnyBeGoodKasich


The articles point to either the FBI tanking the investigation themselves or Lynch and the DOJ tanking it for them. There was more than enough to indict the first time, Comey spent 30 minutes detailing it all during the initial press conference months ago. The following Friday afternoon data dumps confirmed that the "investigation" (it really wasn't one) was purposely limited and hamstrung from the start. No grand jury, blanket immunity tossed around like candy, telling people to destroy evidence, Cheryl Mills.... The FBI is definitely tainted forever by this one. And yes, the plane meeting between Bill and Lynch had something to do with it seeing as it was supposed to be secret. Don't be a fucking retard, they weren't talking about golf and babies. Now the DOJ is stonewalling the FBI and their Clinton Foundation investigation, which is still ongoing. Lynch also tried to squash this current one, as well, but she is too corrupt and politically tainted...Comey had to go forward. It was the right move.

There are around 650k emails on Weiner's laptop...the question is 'what do they contain and where were they sent from?' Meta data suggests that MANY of them originated from Clinton's illegal private email server....should be fun. Be great if there was some good stuff with Huma sending data to her Saudi handlers or her Muslim Brotherhood friends or both. Looks like she also committed perjury when she said, during an interview, that there were no other devices with any official emails on them. Oops.

Funny, though, that Comey was a man of honor and integrity just a few scant months ago...now he should be arrested and executed or burned alive or he is actually working for the Russians. Sucks when you have to actually do your job and this is the treatment you get.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:33 am 
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Funny, though, that Comey was a man of honor and integrity just a few scant months ago...now he should be arrested and executed or burned alive or he is actually working for the Russians. Sucks when you have to actually do your job and this is the treatment you get.

A few scant months ago the (R)s were clamoring for his head .... not sure what your point is exactly.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:33 am 
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Don Tiny wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:
Funny, though, that Comey was a man of honor and integrity just a few scant months ago...now he should be arrested and executed or burned alive or he is actually working for the Russians. Sucks when you have to actually do your job and this is the treatment you get.

A few scant months ago the (R)s were clamoring for his head .... not sure what your point is exactly.
I'd say that is his point.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:36 am 
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Well we know w/o a doubt that Comey's a prostitute, what is his ultimate price for criminally violating the Hatch Act although by his own admission, he knows/has nothing at this point?

Republicans showing their true colors (including their ham fisted attempts at brazen voter fraud in Iowa caught this weekend). Typical.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:37 am 
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SomeGuy wrote:
denisdman wrote:
It's a pissing match between the Justice Department and FBI investigators. Comey is caught in the middle. There are several good articles out on there on the internal politics of the entire investigation. Justice has limited the scope of the FBI's authority's to investigate the Clintons. The FBI agents are pissed at being held back from doing their jobs. The comment that Comey is tired of agent resignation letters piling up on his desk is quite instructive.

Sadly, the entire thing just shows that we are destined to have a tainted President regardless of who wins.

#JohnnyBeGoodKasich


The articles point to either the FBI tanking the investigation themselves or Lynch and the DOJ tanking it for them. There was more than enough to indict the first time, Comey spent 30 minutes detailing it all during the initial press conference months ago. The following Friday afternoon data dumps confirmed that the "investigation" (it really wasn't one) was purposely limited and hamstrung from the start. No grand jury, blanket immunity tossed around like candy, telling people to destroy evidence, Cheryl Mills.... The FBI is definitely tainted forever by this one. And yes, the plane meeting between Bill and Lynch had something to do with it seeing as it was supposed to be secret. Don't be a fucking retard, they weren't talking about golf and babies. Now the DOJ is stonewalling the FBI and their Clinton Foundation investigation, which is still ongoing. Lynch also tried to squash this current one, as well, but she is too corrupt and politically tainted...Comey had to go forward. It was the right move.

There are around 650k emails on Weiner's laptop...the question is 'what do they contain and where were they sent from?' Meta data suggests that MANY of them originated from Clinton's illegal private email server....should be fun. Be great if there was some good stuff with Huma sending data to her Saudi handlers or her Muslim Brotherhood friends or both. Looks like she also committed perjury when she said, during an interview, that there were no other devices with any official emails on them. Oops.

Funny, though, that Comey was a man of honor and integrity just a few scant months ago...now he should be arrested and executed or burned alive or he is actually working for the Russians. Sucks when you have to actually do your job and this is the treatment you get.


Well the thing I found interesting is the that the FBI investigative agents did not end their pursuit of the truth. So while the politicians tried to shut it all down, they continued to do their jobs. Comey is just caught in the middle.

Again, either way we have a very tainted and weak President forthcoming. He/she is going to be dogged by scandal before ever setting foot in the White House.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:37 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Well we know w/o a doubt that Comey's a prostitute, what is his ultimate price for criminally violating the Hatch Act although by his own admission, he knows/has nothing at this point?

Republicans showing their true colors (including their ham fisted attempts at brazen voter fraud in Iowa caught this weekend). Typical.

IMU criminally violates the hot Hatch act.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:38 am 
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Don Tiny wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:
Funny, though, that Comey was a man of honor and integrity just a few scant months ago...now he should be arrested and executed or burned alive or he is actually working for the Russians. Sucks when you have to actually do your job and this is the treatment you get.

A few scant months ago the (R)s were clamoring for his head .... not sure what your point is exactly.


Do as I say, not as I do. Play 1 in the (r) book.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:39 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Well we know w/o a doubt that Comey's a prostitute, what is his ultimate price for criminally violating the Hatch Act although by his own admission, he knows/has nothing at this point?

Republicans showing their true colors (including their ham fisted attempts at brazen voter fraud in Iowa caught this weekend). Typical.


What part did he violate? I mean frankly, he is just finally doing his job in an active investigation of criminal activity.

The 1939 Act forbade the intimidation or bribery of voters and restricts political campaign activities by federal employees. It prohibits using any public funds designated for relief or public works for electoral purposes. It forbade officials paid with federal funds from using promises of jobs, promotion, financial assistance, contracts, or any other benefit to coerce campaign contributions or political support. It provided that persons below the policy-making level in the executive branch of the federal government must not only refrain from political practices that would be illegal for any citizen, but must abstain from "any active part" in political campaigns, using this language to specify those who are exempt:[5]

(i) an employee paid from an appropriation for the Executive Office of the President; or
(ii) an employee appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, whose position is located within the United States, who determines policies to be pursued by the United States in the nationwide administration of Federal laws.

The language was crafted so that the Secretary of State was covered by the Act's restrictions on political activity.[5][not in citation given]

The act also precluded federal employees from membership in "any political organization which advocates the overthrow of our constitutional form of government,"[6] a provision meant to prohibit membership in organizations on the far left and far right, such as the German-American Bund and the Communist Party USA.[7]

An amendment on July 19, 1940 extended the Act to certain employees of state and local governments whose positions are primarily paid for by federal funds. It has been interpreted to bar political activity on the part of employees of state agencies administering federal unemployment insurance programs and appointed local law enforcement agency officials with oversight of federal grant funds. The Hatch Act bars state and local government employees from running for public office if any federal funds support the position, even if the position is funded almost entirely with local funds.[8]

The Merit Systems Protection Board and its Office of Special Counsel are responsible for enforcement of the Hatch Act.[9]

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:43 am 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Well we know w/o a doubt that Comey's a prostitute, what is his ultimate price for criminally violating the Hatch Act although by his own admission, he knows/has nothing at this point?

Republicans showing their true colors (including their ham fisted attempts at brazen voter fraud in Iowa caught this weekend). Typical.

IMU criminally violates the hot Hatch act.

Violated? Not really...though someone with such bad taste in Fast Casual would think that. But that's fine...$8.25 burgers aren't meant for everyone to afford them.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:50 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Well we know w/o a doubt that Comey's a prostitute, what is his ultimate price for criminally violating the Hatch Act although by his own admission, he knows/has nothing at this point?

Republicans showing their true colors (including their ham fisted attempts at brazen voter fraud in Iowa caught this weekend). Typical.


What part did he violate? I mean frankly, he is just finally doing his job in an active investigation of criminal activity.

The 1939 Act forbade the intimidation or bribery of voters and restricts political campaign activities by federal employees. It prohibits using any public funds designated for relief or public works for electoral purposes. It forbade officials paid with federal funds from using promises of jobs, promotion, financial assistance, contracts, or any other benefit to coerce campaign contributions or political support. It provided that persons below the policy-making level in the executive branch of the federal government must not only refrain from political practices that would be illegal for any citizen, but must abstain from "any active part" in political campaigns, using this language to specify those who are exempt:[5]

(i) an employee paid from an appropriation for the Executive Office of the President; or
(ii) an employee appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, whose position is located within the United States, who determines policies to be pursued by the United States in the nationwide administration of Federal laws.

The language was crafted so that the Secretary of State was covered by the Act's restrictions on political activity.[5][not in citation given]

The act also precluded federal employees from membership in "any political organization which advocates the overthrow of our constitutional form of government,"[6] a provision meant to prohibit membership in organizations on the far left and far right, such as the German-American Bund and the Communist Party USA.[7]

An amendment on July 19, 1940 extended the Act to certain employees of state and local governments whose positions are primarily paid for by federal funds. It has been interpreted to bar political activity on the part of employees of state agencies administering federal unemployment insurance programs and appointed local law enforcement agency officials with oversight of federal grant funds. The Hatch Act bars state and local government employees from running for public office if any federal funds support the position, even if the position is funded almost entirely with local funds.[8]

The Merit Systems Protection Board and its Office of Special Counsel are responsible for enforcement of the Hatch Act.[9]



Did you even read the complete first sentence of the summary you cut & pasted from noted legal authority Wikipedia? Why you included the pointless remainder is puzzling though, ...unless it's your strict adherence to Rule 2 of the (r) Book, which is to obfuscate at all chances.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:53 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Well we know w/o a doubt that Comey's a prostitute, what is his ultimate price for criminally violating the Hatch Act although by his own admission, he knows/has nothing at this point?

Republicans showing their true colors (including their ham fisted attempts at brazen voter fraud in Iowa caught this weekend). Typical.


What part did he violate? I mean frankly, he is just finally doing his job in an active investigation of criminal activity.

The 1939 Act forbade the intimidation or bribery of voters and restricts political campaign activities by federal employees. It prohibits using any public funds designated for relief or public works for electoral purposes. It forbade officials paid with federal funds from using promises of jobs, promotion, financial assistance, contracts, or any other benefit to coerce campaign contributions or political support. It provided that persons below the policy-making level in the executive branch of the federal government must not only refrain from political practices that would be illegal for any citizen, but must abstain from "any active part" in political campaigns, using this language to specify those who are exempt:[5]

(i) an employee paid from an appropriation for the Executive Office of the President; or
(ii) an employee appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, whose position is located within the United States, who determines policies to be pursued by the United States in the nationwide administration of Federal laws.

The language was crafted so that the Secretary of State was covered by the Act's restrictions on political activity.[5][not in citation given]

The act also precluded federal employees from membership in "any political organization which advocates the overthrow of our constitutional form of government,"[6] a provision meant to prohibit membership in organizations on the far left and far right, such as the German-American Bund and the Communist Party USA.[7]

An amendment on July 19, 1940 extended the Act to certain employees of state and local governments whose positions are primarily paid for by federal funds. It has been interpreted to bar political activity on the part of employees of state agencies administering federal unemployment insurance programs and appointed local law enforcement agency officials with oversight of federal grant funds. The Hatch Act bars state and local government employees from running for public office if any federal funds support the position, even if the position is funded almost entirely with local funds.[8]

The Merit Systems Protection Board and its Office of Special Counsel are responsible for enforcement of the Hatch Act.[9]


Dats exactly right! He is going down for finally doing his job. He didn't want to go this far but he was forced to. Never knew that RR was a YUUUUGE Harry Reid guy! At this point there are 650k emails to comb through, they don't know what they have. Maybe something, maybe nothing. If it's gone this far I'd say there is a decent chance of something. Of course if an actual independent investigation was done the first time without DOJ running cover for Clinton we would be at this point.

But there was plenty of cash donations tossed about to McCabe's side of things earlier so I'm sure that may have had something to do with all of this. It's political survival that, fortunately, has the chance of seeing justice done.

Clinton, I have a feeling your whole family is going down! But right now I have to click all the links on Drudge!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:56 am 
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Abedin knows exactly what's on that computer. Why does anyone need the FBI to tells us? If it's no big deal or "nothing" why doesn't she just say exactly what it is?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:01 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Well we know w/o a doubt that Comey's a prostitute, what is his ultimate price for criminally violating the Hatch Act although by his own admission, he knows/has nothing at this point?

Republicans showing their true colors (including their ham fisted attempts at brazen voter fraud in Iowa caught this weekend). Typical.


What part did he violate? I mean frankly, he is just finally doing his job in an active investigation of criminal activity.

The 1939 Act forbade the intimidation or bribery of voters and restricts political campaign activities by federal employees.



Did you even read the complete first sentence of the summary you cut & pasted from noted legal authority Wikipedia? Why you included the pointless remainder is puzzling though, ...unless it's your strict adherence to Rule 2 of the (r) Book, which is to obfuscate at all chances.


He did none of those things.

Intimidation- no
Bribery- no
Political Campaigning- no

He did his job.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:01 am 
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SomeGuy wrote:
[ At this point there are 650k emails to comb through,!


If it was a man, it probably would have been like 1,000 to cover the same amount of business

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:06 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Well we know w/o a doubt that Comey's a prostitute, what is his ultimate price for criminally violating the Hatch Act although by his own admission, he knows/has nothing at this point?

Republicans showing their true colors (including their ham fisted attempts at brazen voter fraud in Iowa caught this weekend). Typical.


What part did he violate? I mean frankly, he is just finally doing his job in an active investigation of criminal activity.

The 1939 Act forbade the intimidation or bribery of voters and restricts political campaign activities by federal employees.



Did you even read the complete first sentence of the summary you cut & pasted from noted legal authority Wikipedia? Why you included the pointless remainder is puzzling though, ...unless it's your strict adherence to Rule 2 of the (r) Book, which is to obfuscate at all chances.


He did none of those things.

Intimidation- no
Bribery- no
Political Campaigning- no

He did his job.


MANY on this thread (d) obfuscating things.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:07 am 
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SomeGuy wrote:
Well we know w/o a doubt that...they don't know what they have. Maybe something, maybe nothing. If it's gone this far I'd say there is a decent chance of something.


A month ago he stated that there was nothing learned that rose to the standard to support an indictment, now he broke established DOJ protocol and federal law to play politics even though he readily admits that he has nothing to support a crass political fishing expedition ten days before an election, even though his own AND eight prior r Congressional investigations over three years costing tens of wasted millions found nothing.

Nothing. At all.

Except three small "c's" he found remarkably easy to overlook. Unless you're an up and coming demagogue like Jason Chaffetz of Utah. Or doing his political bidding(see, Hatch Act).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:08 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Abedin knows exactly what's on that computer. Why does anyone need the FBI to tells us? If it's no big deal or "nothing" why doesn't she just say exactly what it is?


Right. Abedin also lied about turning in all devices with pertinent emails and communications on them.

Uh oh!


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Regular Reader wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:
Well we know w/o a doubt that...they don't know what they have. Maybe something, maybe nothing. If it's gone this far I'd say there is a decent chance of something.


A month ago he stated that there was nothing learned that rose to the standard to support an indictment, now he broke established DOJ protocol and federal law to play politics even though he readily admits that he has nothing to support a crass political fishing expedition ten days before an election, even though his own AND eight prior r Congressional investigations over three years costing tens of wasted millions found nothing.

Nothing. At all.

Except three small "c's" he found remarkably easy to overlook. Unless you're an up and coming demagogue like Jason Chaffetz of Utah. Or doing his political bidding(see, Hatch Act).


You choose to ignore new evidence? That's fine. We are getting a crook in the White House regardless. I won't vote for either and prefer that Clinton wins for the good of this country. So I am not the partisan hack that you should be worried about.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:15 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:
Well we know w/o a doubt that...they don't know what they have. Maybe something, maybe nothing. If it's gone this far I'd say there is a decent chance of something.


A month ago he stated that there was nothing learned that rose to the standard to support an indictment, now he broke established DOJ protocol and federal law to play politics even though he readily admits that he has nothing to support a crass political fishing expedition ten days before an election, even though his own AND eight prior r Congressional investigations over three years costing tens of wasted millions found nothing.

Nothing. At all.

Except three small "c's" he found remarkably easy to overlook. Unless you're an up and coming demagogue like Jason Chaffetz of Utah. Or doing his political bidding(see, Hatch Act).


You're totally lost in your (d) partisan fog. Look towards the lighthouse of truth and hopefully you can find your way to safety.

Comey spent an entire press conference detailing why Clinton should be indicted. Then said she didn't mean it. :lol: add that in with all we've learned about the actual (neutered) investigation and it doesn't take a Lanny Poffo to realize what's going on.

By the way, she had an illegal private email server and sent documents she should have sent from it, there were also 110 smoking guns sent back and forth through email chains.... to say Comey got up and said he found nothing at all says more about you and your cognitive dissonance than anything else. You comport yourself as a man of truth and even thinking yet you're here doing this....


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:16 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Abedin knows exactly what's on that computer. Why does anyone need the FBI to tells us? If it's no big deal or "nothing" why doesn't she just say exactly what it is?


Why would she know? I imagine that your wife has a computer that you've never used and are clueless about what's on there.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:16 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:
Funny, though, that Comey was a man of honor and integrity just a few scant months ago...now he should be arrested and executed or burned alive or he is actually working for the Russians. Sucks when you have to actually do your job and this is the treatment you get.

A few scant months ago the (R)s were clamoring for his head .... not sure what your point is exactly.


Do as I say, not as I do. Play 1 in the (r) book.

Maybe... but Al Gore really perfected it.

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