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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:39 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I think a lot of Hillary supporters were blind to all the flaws of their candidate because they found Trump so vile. I'd put my wife in that category. But people who weren't predisposed to back Clinton saw it differently.

I just spoke to the Pakistani Muslim where I buy my newspapers. The edition of the Sun-Times he had was too early to declare a winner. He didn't know who won. When I told him he said, "This guy. He says all kinds of crazy stuff about groups of people. I couldn't vote for him. But her, with her e-mails and other stuff. 'Oh, it was a mistake.' There's too many mistakes. I couldn't vote for her either." I think a lot of people felt that way.


Wow.


JORR speaks to Muslims.


I have no problem with Muslims on a personal level. I just don't think the ideology of Islam is innocuous.

Anyway, my point in mentioning that he was Muslim is that he's supposed to dislike Trump, which of course he does. But that dislike couldn't bring him to vote for Clinton.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:40 am 
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Midget, JORR, I can't disagree with anything you both posted, but the "whitelash" is a painful pill to swallow

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:41 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
long time guy wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Nas wrote:
The dramatic increase in white voters is why Trump won. It's really that simple.
Not according to what I heard on the radion this morning. WBBM had a report that said Black voters were 93% for Obama, 88% for HRC. Hispanics were 76% for Obama, and 68% for HRC.

The dropoff in minority support seems to be the reason why Trump won. It really is that simple.



Black turnout was significantly lower for her also. She couldn't or probably didn't try to make the connection. There are a lot of people that are either apathetic or simply don't like her. Blacks never felt the same way about her that they have felt about Bill. Not even close. They accepted her but they never advocated for her.


You could also suggest that, you know, people just don't objectively like her.



That is true. You know what though as much as people want to make this about her this is a vote for the policies and beliefs of Donald Trump.

Let's not obfuscate anymore. He beat out 16 people before he ever got to her. This was a vote for him too. He has a base of support that buys the bullshit that he is selling.

People can ease their conscious if they choose but this country wanted that racist xenophobic motherfucker and now we got him.


I think it's somewhat difficult to argue that people voted for Trump's ideas when he campaigned both to the left and right of Clinton simultaneously. He was both more AND less militaristic than Clinton in espousing a foreign policy, and more AND less of a free-market zealot in his economic policy. Nevertheless, he did articulate two consistent positions throughout the campaign--his opposition to NAFTA (and other corporate free trade deals) and his support for massive new immigration restrictions. To a large degree, then, I think Clinton's defeat was sealed by her support for the neoliberal free trade regime. I have been arguing this point for months, and I think it's clear that Trump could not have performed as well as he did in the Rust Belt without his blistering assault on Clinton's support for NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP, etc.



To a degree I agree but Trump was the biggest free trader in the field byfar. NAFTA has been murder for Hillary Clinton in the past two cycles. I don't know why she has never laid the case with respects to its benefits. At the least she should have made more of an attempt to tie Trump to it.

I hated the "temperament"argument. She got nothing out of it.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:43 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
long time guy wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Nas wrote:
The dramatic increase in white voters is why Trump won. It's really that simple.
Not according to what I heard on the radion this morning. WBBM had a report that said Black voters were 93% for Obama, 88% for HRC. Hispanics were 76% for Obama, and 68% for HRC.

The dropoff in minority support seems to be the reason why Trump won. It really is that simple.



Black turnout was significantly lower for her also. She couldn't or probably didn't try to make the connection. There are a lot of people that are either apathetic or simply don't like her. Blacks never felt the same way about her that they have felt about Bill. Not even close. They accepted her but they never advocated for her.


You could also suggest that, you know, people just don't objectively like her.



That is true. You know what though as much as people want to make this about her this is a vote for the policies and beliefs of Donald Trump.

Let's not obfuscate anymore. He beat out 16 people before he ever got to her. This was a vote for him too. He has a base of support that buys the bullshit that he is selling.

People can ease their conscious if they choose but this country wanted that racist xenophobic motherfucker and now we got him.


I think it's somewhat difficult to argue that people voted for Trump's ideas when he campaigned both to the left and right of Clinton simultaneously. He was both more AND less militaristic than Clinton in espousing a foreign policy, and more AND less of a free-market zealot in his economic policy. Nevertheless, he did articulate two consistent positions throughout the campaign--his opposition to NAFTA (and other corporate free trade deals) and his support for massive new immigration restrictions. To a large degree, then, I think Clinton's defeat was sealed by her support for the neoliberal free trade regime. I have been arguing this point for months, and I think it's clear that Trump could not have performed as well as he did in the Rust Belt without his blistering assault on Clinton's support for NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP, etc.


Elmhurst Steve vibe.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:44 am 
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This election is yet another classic example of how our country totally over reacts to stimulus. It's like how that bus got hit by a train in fox river Grove and now every damn bus has to stop at every damn crossing whether it's an active or decommissioned track and open the door and essentially stop traffic for no real good reason. Or how we have a shooting and everyone loses their shit for a couple weeks.

After 8 years of democratic rule, everyone is in the same place with no advancement (except for imu who just keeps on fast tracking) or is in a worse financial position so we totally over react and sweep out the pols and guess what the same thing will happen again in 2020 (as it did in 08)...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:45 am 
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All I am hearing today on liberal media (NPR/Huff Post) is how this proves everyone is racist and sexist. Did not learn a thing from the election. President Donald Trump is 100 percent on these insider Democrat assholes who were worried about OPTICS as jobs dried up.

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Last edited by WaitingforRuffcorn on Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:46 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
I think it's somewhat difficult to argue that people voted for Trump's ideas when he campaigned both to the left and right of Clinton simultaneously. He was both more AND less militaristic than Clinton in espousing a foreign policy, and more AND less of a free-market zealot in his economic policy. Nevertheless, he did articulate two consistent positions throughout the campaign--his opposition to NAFTA (and other corporate free trade deals) and his support for massive new immigration restrictions. To a large degree, then, I think Clinton's defeat was sealed by her support for the neoliberal free trade regime. I have been arguing this point for months, and I think it's clear that Trump could not have performed as well as he did in the Rust Belt without his blistering assault on Clinton's support for NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP, etc.


Elmhurst Steve vibe.

Elmhurst Steve can barely understand what RBI, OPS, and avg mean. Do you really think he grasps what NAFTA & CAFTA are all about?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:46 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
I think it's somewhat difficult to argue that people voted for Trump's ideas when he campaigned both to the left and right of Clinton simultaneously. He was both more AND less militaristic than Clinton in espousing a foreign policy, and more AND less of a free-market zealot in his economic policy. Nevertheless, he did articulate two consistent positions throughout the campaign--his opposition to NAFTA (and other corporate free trade deals) and his support for massive new immigration restrictions. To a large degree, then, I think Clinton's defeat was sealed by her support for the neoliberal free trade regime. I have been arguing this point for months, and I think it's clear that Trump could not have performed as well as he did in the Rust Belt without his blistering assault on Clinton's support for NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP, etc.


Elmhurst Steve vibe.

Elmhurst Steve can barely understand what RBI, OPS, and avg mean. Do you really think he grasps what NAFTA & CAFTA are all about?


Only the bolded part, Frank.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:47 am 
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Darkside wrote:
This election is yet another classic example of how our country totally over reacts to stimulus. It's like how that bus got hit by a train in fox river Grove and now every damn bus has to stop at every damn crossing whether it's an active or decommissioned track and open the door and essentially stop traffic for no real good reason. Or how we have a shooting and everyone loses their shit for a couple weeks.

After 8 years of democratic rule, everyone is in the same place with no advancement (except for imu who just keeps on fast tracking) or is in a worse financial position so we totally over react and sweep out the pols and guess what the same thing will happen again in 2020 (as it did in 08)...


Right. Good thing we wasted months arguing then. Seriously, the SCOTUS is the real issue and a large reason why people were against HRC so fiercely.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:49 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
All I am hearing today on liberal media (NPR/Huff Post) is how this proves everyone is racist and sexist.

Apparently, they didn't. They still feel as superior as ever and still deride those who voted for Trump as uneducated rubes. Even if they did vote against their economic interests (and it's not clear that they did, given Hillary stance on everything), people have always voted for other factors besides their own economic interests.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:49 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:50 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Midget, JORR, I can't disagree with anything you both posted, but the "whitelash" is a painful pill to swallow


Part of the problem here is that the neoliberalism championed by the Clintons has simultaneously undermined our economic base, ended the era of large scale government-sponsored public works projects, and undercut traditional liberal institutions such as labor unions, schools, newspapers, etc. As a result, the lives of working class whites have been plunged into economic misery at the same that channels for rationally understanding and navigating through this misery have been eviscerated. As a result, many whites have become more susceptible to viewing the world atavistically through an emotional and racist lens.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:57 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Midget, JORR, I can't disagree with anything you both posted, but the "whitelash" is a painful pill to swallow


Part of the problem here is that the neoliberalism championed by the Clintons has simultaneously undermined our economic base, ended the era of large scale government-sponsored public works projects, and undercut traditional liberal institutions such as labor unions, schools, newspapers, etc. As a result, the lives of working class whites have been plunged into economic misery at the same that channels for rationally understanding and navigating through this misery have been eviscerated. As a result, many whites have become more susceptible to viewing the world atavistically through an emotional and racist lens.

It's why I voted for Bernie

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:57 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Midget, JORR, I can't disagree with anything you both posted, but the "whitelash" is a painful pill to swallow


Part of the problem here is that the neoliberalism championed by the Clintons has simultaneously undermined our economic base, ended the era of large scale government-sponsored public works projects, and undercut traditional liberal institutions such as labor unions, schools, newspapers, etc. As a result, the lives of working class whites have been plunged into economic misery at the same that channels for rationally understanding and navigating through this misery have been eviscerated. As a result, many whites have become more susceptible to viewing the world atavistically through an emotional and racist lens.

It's why I voted for Bernie


What? You gave us shit for Bernie.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:59 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
As a result, the lives of working class whites have been plunged into economic misery at the same that channels for rationally understanding and navigating through this misery have been eviscerated. As a result, many whites have become more susceptible to viewing the world atavistically through an emotional and racist lens.

These two points are what's lost on MANY. My social circle composed primarily of the professional-managerial class you have previously mentioned on the board are blind to these aspects. Hey, they live in a sweet apartment downtown, own a nice car and make a great UMC salary. There's nothing wrong with the direction to them.

My group texts and Facebook feed has been quite the hyper-dramatic pity party.


Last edited by Kirkwood on Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:59 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Midget, JORR, I can't disagree with anything you both posted, but the "whitelash" is a painful pill to swallow


Part of the problem here is that the neoliberalism championed by the Clintons has simultaneously undermined our economic base, ended the era of large scale government-sponsored public works projects, and undercut traditional liberal institutions such as labor unions, schools, newspapers, etc. As a result, the lives of working class whites have been plunged into economic misery at the same that channels for rationally understanding and navigating through this misery have been eviscerated. As a result, many whites have become more susceptible to viewing the world atavistically through an emotional and racist lens.

It's why I voted for Bernie


What? You gave us shit for Bernie.


Bernie would have won.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:01 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Midget, JORR, I can't disagree with anything you both posted, but the "whitelash" is a painful pill to swallow


Part of the problem here is that the neoliberalism championed by the Clintons has simultaneously undermined our economic base, ended the era of large scale government-sponsored public works projects, and undercut traditional liberal institutions such as labor unions, schools, newspapers, etc. As a result, the lives of working class whites have been plunged into economic misery at the same that channels for rationally understanding and navigating through this misery have been eviscerated. As a result, many whites have become more susceptible to viewing the world atavistically through an emotional and racist lens.


Have I got news for them: there's a large scale government-sponsored public works project in the Southwest that should be firing up in early 2017. And I'm told it's 100% off the books.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:02 am 
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I'm slowly coming to grips with all of this. Last night at around 8pm I was in shock. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I don't think I've ever felt the way I did.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:02 am 
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Telegram Sam wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Midget, JORR, I can't disagree with anything you both posted, but the "whitelash" is a painful pill to swallow


Part of the problem here is that the neoliberalism championed by the Clintons has simultaneously undermined our economic base, ended the era of large scale government-sponsored public works projects, and undercut traditional liberal institutions such as labor unions, schools, newspapers, etc. As a result, the lives of working class whites have been plunged into economic misery at the same that channels for rationally understanding and navigating through this misery have been eviscerated. As a result, many whites have become more susceptible to viewing the world atavistically through an emotional and racist lens.


Have I got news for them: there's a large scale government-sponsored public works project in the Southwest that should be firing up in early 2017. And I'm told it's 100% off the books.


:lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:04 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
As a result, the lives of working class whites have been plunged into economic misery at the same that channels for rationally understanding and navigating through this misery have been eviscerated. As a result, many whites have become more susceptible to viewing the world atavistically through an emotional and racist lens.

These two points are what's lost on MANY. My social circle composed primarily of the professional-managerial class you have previously mention are blind to these aspects. My group texts and Facebook feed has been quite the hyper-dramatic pity party.


I'm torn on this.

I grew up in one of the most affected cities by free trade in the country. All business left, as did any good paying jobs. The city is now a shell of its former self. My Facebook feed was filled with Trump supporters. Many of them just hate Democrats and Hillary Clinton specifically. Others would occasionally mention social issues. About the closest they got to ever understanding or discussing a free trade issue was just saying that they wanted an "outsider." It's anecdotal, of course, but I think it has some merit. If they voted against free trade, I think they did it in a broader sense ("outsider") than they did it specifically because they hated NAFTA, for example.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:05 am 
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Nas wrote:
I'm slowly coming to grips with all of this. Last night at around 8pm I was in shock. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I don't think I've ever felt the way I did.


I thought she ran a shitty campaign and failed to define herself as a compelling alternative to Trump, but I tricked myself into believing the polls. So I was pretty shocked, too.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:06 am 
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Nas wrote:
I'm slowly coming to grips with all of this. Last night at around 8pm I was in shock. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I don't think I've ever felt the way I did.


Nas not to be a dick but your prediction are almost as bad as CH. I mean first the Bears and now this.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:11 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm slowly coming to grips with all of this. Last night at around 8pm I was in shock. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I don't think I've ever felt the way I did.


I thought she ran a shitty campaign and failed to define herself as a compelling alternative to Trump, but I tricked myself into believing the polls. So I was pretty shocked, too.


I thought she ran a shitty campaign too and was overconfident. I was telling my lady friend this weekend that I was surprised that Hillary was going to win considering that the overwhelming majority of the people that I spoke with were against her or only voting for her because they were against him. Most candidates win when people are for them.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:12 am 
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Nas wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm slowly coming to grips with all of this. Last night at around 8pm I was in shock. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I don't think I've ever felt the way I did.


I thought she ran a shitty campaign and failed to define herself as a compelling alternative to Trump, but I tricked myself into believing the polls. So I was pretty shocked, too.


I thought she ran a shitty campaign too and was overconfident. I was telling my lady friend this weekend that I was surprised that Hillary was going to win considering that the overwhelming majority of the people that I spoke with were against her or only voting for her because they were against him. Most candidates win when people are for them.


She was a poor choice to begin with and the campaign was a reflection of that. When you just sit back and hope the other candidate implodes, you're going to lose. You have to inspire people at least a little.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:17 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm slowly coming to grips with all of this. Last night at around 8pm I was in shock. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I don't think I've ever felt the way I did.


I thought she ran a shitty campaign and failed to define herself as a compelling alternative to Trump, but I tricked myself into believing the polls. So I was pretty shocked, too.


I thought she ran a shitty campaign too and was overconfident. I was telling my lady friend this weekend that I was surprised that Hillary was going to win considering that the overwhelming majority of the people that I spoke with were against her or only voting for her because they were against him. Most candidates win when people are for them.


She was a poor choice to begin with and the campaign was a reflection of that. When you just sit back and hope the other candidate implodes, you're going to lose. You have to inspire people at least a little.
I agree. Somebody on FB said "She ran her campaign like Lovie Smith coaches with a 4 point lead." :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:17 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
She was a poor choice to begin with and the campaign was a reflection of that. When you just sit back and hope the other candidate implodes, you're going to lose. You have to inspire people at least a little.

It's the worst campaign of our lifetime. No one did less with more.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:19 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
She was a poor choice to begin with and the campaign was a reflection of that. When you just sit back and hope the other candidate implodes, you're going to lose. You have to inspire people at least a little.

It's the worst campaign of our lifetime. No one did less with more.
I think the most telling thing is that she lost Wisconsin by a slim margin while NEVER entering the state since the primaries.

She didn't even know she was in any danger there.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:20 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Midget, JORR, I can't disagree with anything you both posted, but the "whitelash" is a painful pill to swallow


Part of the problem here is that the neoliberalism championed by the Clintons has simultaneously undermined our economic base, ended the era of large scale government-sponsored public works projects, and undercut traditional liberal institutions such as labor unions, schools, newspapers, etc. As a result, the lives of working class whites have been plunged into economic misery at the same that channels for rationally understanding and navigating through this misery have been eviscerated. As a result, many whites have become more susceptible to viewing the world atavistically through an emotional and racist lens.

people largely seemed to vote based on who would give them a job and ignored all the other warning signs on Trump.

Is he racist? I think the answer is to some degree yes (although you could make an argument that the Clintons were too). Is he sexist? No doubt. Is he repugnant? Absolutely. Did I vote for him? No.

It's all about the economy, stupid. And upper class america (defined by me as anyone making above 60k as a dual income household) did not see this coming.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:21 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
She was a poor choice to begin with and the campaign was a reflection of that. When you just sit back and hope the other candidate implodes, you're going to lose. You have to inspire people at least a little.

It's the worst campaign of our lifetime. No one did less with more.


She was the anointed candidate of the Democratic Establishment. Let's hope this ignominious defeat opens up space for progressive influence within a rudderless neoliberal party.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:24 am 
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City of Fools wrote:
It's all about the economy, stupid.


It's ironic that Bill Clinton rode this premise to victory and sticking with it made him teflon in every other way, yet Hillary's campaign didn't seem to understand it. You would think the party that started, "It's just sex. Move on." would know better than to try to beat Trump on pussy grabbing.

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