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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:59 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I hate black and white arguments. HATE.

But there is absolutely no positive argument for Fidel Castro, and any attempts to do so are complete nonsense.

Unless there is a valid basis to do so


There's not. You and I usually agree, but this ain't one of those times. He was a terrible human being who did awful things that have no justification.


That the wrong kind of people spent so much time demonizing the man will help me remain more secure in my feelings. Respectfully.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:01 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I hate black and white arguments. HATE.

But there is absolutely no positive argument for Fidel Castro, and any attempts to do so are complete nonsense.

Unless there is a valid basis to do so


What's the valid basis? I'd like to hear it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:02 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
I hate black and white arguments. HATE.

But there is absolutely no positive argument for Fidel Castro, and any attempts to do so are complete nonsense.



The average age in cuba is ten years higher than the developed u.s.a even though Cuba is a third world country. Cuba is the most developed third world country by giving their citizens free health and their students free education. Cuba has the most qualified doctors in the world.

Also, there is an excellent free healthcare system, which attracts patients from the US and elsewhere for treatments ranging from drug dependency to melanomas, generating more than $40 million in revenue. The infant mortality rate is way lower that America’s, and Cuba has twice as many doctors per 1,000 patients than that of the US. Like said before, there is very little serious crime.


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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:02 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I hate black and white arguments. HATE.

But there is absolutely no positive argument for Fidel Castro, and any attempts to do so are complete nonsense.

Unless there is a valid basis to do so


There's not. You and I usually agree, but this ain't one of those times. He was a terrible human being who did awful things that have no justification.


That the wrong kind of people spent so much time demonizing the man will help me remain more secure in my feelings. Respectfully.


Of course. I respect hour old ass more than most.

You're wrong, but I still respect you. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:05 am 
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Nas wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I hate black and white arguments. HATE.

But there is absolutely no positive argument for Fidel Castro, and any attempts to do so are complete nonsense.



The average age in cuba is ten years higher than the developed u.s.a even though Cuba is a third world country. Cuba is the most developed third world country by giving their citizens free health and their students free education. Cuba has the most qualified doctors in the world.

Also, there is an excellent free healthcare system, which attracts patients from the US and elsewhere for treatments ranging from drug dependency to melanomas, generating more than $40 million in revenue. The infant mortality rate is way lower that America’s, and Cuba has twice as many doctors per 1,000 patients than that of the US. Like said before, there is very little serious crime.



I'm going to sound like a right wing idiot here, but I find most of that very hard to believe. Most of it is also probably out of context. There's no way that rich Americans are lining up to go to Cuba for bypass surgery.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:08 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I hate black and white arguments. HATE.

But there is absolutely no positive argument for Fidel Castro, and any attempts to do so are complete nonsense.



The average age in cuba is ten years higher than the developed u.s.a even though Cuba is a third world country. Cuba is the most developed third world country by giving their citizens free health and their students free education. Cuba has the most qualified doctors in the world.

Also, there is an excellent free healthcare system, which attracts patients from the US and elsewhere for treatments ranging from drug dependency to melanomas, generating more than $40 million in revenue. The infant mortality rate is way lower that America’s, and Cuba has twice as many doctors per 1,000 patients than that of the US. Like said before, there is very little serious crime.



I'm going to sound like a right wing idiot here, but I find most of that very hard to believe. Most of it is also probably out of context. There's no way that rich Americans are lining up to go to Cuba for bypass surgery.


I forgot to add the link. Raul went on a mini rant when Obama came there about the human rights areas Cuba was ahead of us in.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:11 am 
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Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?


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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:12 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Nas wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I hate black and white arguments. HATE.

But there is absolutely no positive argument for Fidel Castro, and any attempts to do so are complete nonsense.



The average age in cuba is ten years higher than the developed u.s.a even though Cuba is a third world country. Cuba is the most developed third world country by giving their citizens free health and their students free education. Cuba has the most qualified doctors in the world.

Also, there is an excellent free healthcare system, which attracts patients from the US and elsewhere for treatments ranging from drug dependency to melanomas, generating more than $40 million in revenue. The infant mortality rate is way lower that America’s, and Cuba has twice as many doctors per 1,000 patients than that of the US. Like said before, there is very little serious crime.



I'm going to sound like a right wing idiot here, but I find most of that very hard to believe. Most of it is also probably out of context. There's no way that rich Americans are lining up to go to Cuba for bypass surgery.


But you don't know his sourcing, but are willing to fully accept the chamber of commerce and Cuban dinosaur version of Cuba. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:13 am 
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Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

In many areas, sadly yes

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:14 am 
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Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

No.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:16 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

No.

Again with the misplaced absolutes, damn

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:17 am 
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Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?


I imagine that there are some areas they're more progressive than us in. I'm sure that you really don't care but I will try to find the video.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:18 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

No.

Again with the misplaced absolutes, damn

When I get home and at my computer I'll back this up, but it's unequivocally a true statement.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:22 am 
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https://youtu.be/GwEG0hOWBXw


https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-of ... oint-press

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:22 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

No.

Again with the misplaced absolutes, damn

When I get home and at my computer I'll back this up, but it's unequivocally a true statement.

Start with refuting that quality public education or health care aren't human rights

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:26 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

No.

Again with the misplaced absolutes, damn

When I get home and at my computer I'll back this up, but it's unequivocally a true statement.

Start with refuting that quality public education or health care aren't human rights

No problem :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:37 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Start with refuting that quality public education or health care aren't human rights


Ideologically that sounds good. I don't know that the execution of those ideals work in Cuba.


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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:00 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

In many areas, sadly yes

Here's the Human Rights Watch. I'm sure they are the wrong type of people wrongly demonizing Fidel Castro as well. Here's who they are:

Human Rights Watch is a nonprofit, nongovernmental human rights organization made up of roughly 400 staff members around the globe. Its staff consists of human rights professionals including country experts, lawyers, journalists, and academics of diverse backgrounds and nationalities. Established in 1978, Human Rights Watch is known for its accurate fact-finding, impartial reporting, effective use of media, and targeted advocacy, often in partnership with local human rights groups. Each year, Human Rights Watch publishes more than 100 reports and briefings on human rights conditions in some 90 countries, generating extensive coverage in local and international media. With the leverage this brings, Human Rights Watch meets with governments, the United Nations, regional groups like the African Union and the European Union, financial institutions, and corporations to press for changes in policy and practice that promote human rights and justice around the world.


https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/c ... pters/cuba
Quote:
The Cuban government still refuses to recognize human rights monitoring as a legitimate activity and denies legal status to local human rights groups. Meanwhile, government authorities harass, assault, and imprison human rights defenders who attempt to document abuses.


https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/11/26/cub ... repression

Quote:
During Castro’s rule, thousands of Cubans were incarcerated in abysmal prisons, thousands more were harassed and intimidated, and entire generations were denied basic political freedoms. Cuba made improvements in health and education, though many of these gains were undermined by extended periods of economic hardship and by repressive policies.

“As other countries in the region turned away from authoritarian rule, only Fidel Castro’s Cuba continued to repress virtually all civil and political rights,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “Castro’s draconian rule and the harsh punishments he meted out to dissidents kept his repressive system rooted firmly in place for decades.”


We have a long way to go when it comes to human rights as a country, but it's simple false to suggest that comprehensively Cuba is better with human rights than we are. We are absolutely better, according to the people who actually do this stuff for a living.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:07 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

No.

Again with the misplaced absolutes, damn

When I get home and at my computer I'll back this up, but it's unequivocally a true statement.

Start with refuting that quality public education or health care aren't human rights


I don't know that answering this has any bearing on the argument about Castro, but these aren't "rights."

Let me be clear, though... I think a society that is as successful as ours should provide these things. But that doesn't make them a right. If education is a right, then we would have to force educators to provide education to serial killers in prison. If health care was a right, we would have to provide it to anyone at anytime under any circumstance. These things should be freely accessible, but they are not rights, and I think that calling them "rights" undermines the efforts to make them accessible.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:23 am 
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http://babalublog.com/fidel-castros-greatest-atrocities-and-crimes/fidel-castros-firing-squads-in-cuba/

I'm sure these are human rights MANY Americans wish they had.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:54 am 
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Maybe now that he is dead Americans dying to get into Cuba every year at sea for their great Education and Healthcare will stop.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:00 am 
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conns7901 wrote:
Maybe now that he is dead Americans dying to get into Cuba every year at sea for their great Education and Healthcare will stop.


Amen.. Hopefully the DOJ stops sending convicts to Cuba as well

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:00 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I hate black and white arguments. HATE.

But there is absolutely no positive argument for Fidel Castro, and any attempts to do so are complete nonsense.

Unless there is a valid basis to do so

There isn't. That's the problem here.


Well, if someone wants to recognize him for his importance, I don't have an issue with that. It would be somewhat similar to Time putting Hitler on its cover as "Man of the Year". It was about recognizing influence, not lauding a monster. Ozzie Guillen clumsily and in his patented glib way expressed admiration for Castro in this vein. I didn't find that offensive, but it sure wasn't going to fly in South Florida.

The original Cuban ex-pats in Florida were mostly the wealthy who weren't exactly suffering under Batista. Batista created an environment that was ripe for revolution. Unfortunately, in this case the cure turned out to be worse than the disease.

What Castro did was like if the Occupy movement actually seized control of the U.S. government. And then he maintained control for over 50 years. I think it's possible to recognize Castro as an historic figure without expressing remorse over his death.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:12 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

No.

Again with the misplaced absolutes, damn

When I get home and at my computer I'll back this up, but it's unequivocally a true statement.

Start with refuting that quality public education or health care aren't human rights


This leads to an interesting discussion that I am certain Boilermaker Rick will enjoy, and that is, what is the point of education? I believe the goal of getting an education should simply be that education in itself. But in the hyper-capitalist U.S. that certainly isn't a prevailing viewpoint. The object for most people seems to be to get an education they "can use", i.e. can use to make money, as if any knowledge that is not utilized in pursuit of financial gain is somehow worthless.

In any case, this discussion is pertinent to Castro's Cuba where young people had demonstrated a preference for working in the hotel industry where they could receive large tips from Canadian tourists rather than becoming highly educated doctors who get paid a relative pittance. One thing is for certain, you cannot eat your education.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:57 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

No.

Again with the misplaced absolutes, damn

When I get home and at my computer I'll back this up, but it's unequivocally a true statement.

Start with refuting that quality public education or health care aren't human rights


This leads to an interesting discussion that I am certain Boilermaker Rick will enjoy, and that is, what is the point of education? I believe the goal of getting an education should simply be that education in itself. But in the hyper-capitalist U.S. that certainly isn't a prevailing viewpoint. The object for most people seems to be to get an education they "can use", i.e. can use to make money, as if any knowledge that is not utilized in pursuit of financial gain is somehow worthless.

In any case, this discussion is pertinent to Castro's Cuba where young people had demonstrated a preference for working in the hotel industry where they could receive large tips from Canadian tourists rather than becoming highly educated doctors who get paid a relative pittance. One thing is for certain, you cannot eat your education.


What if you attended Hamburger University?

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:17 am 
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Nas wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?


I imagine that there are some areas they're more progressive than us in. I'm sure that you really don't care but I will try to find the video.

:lol:
Hey, the Soviet Union had universal healthcare too!
Stalin was just a victim of evil capitalist oppressors!


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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:32 am 
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Another bad egg to leave this earth in the past 8 years.

Thank you President Obama!

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:31 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

No.

Again with the misplaced absolutes, damn

When I get home and at my computer I'll back this up, but it's unequivocally a true statement.

Start with refuting that quality public education or health care aren't human rights


Just for you RR. :wink:

http://theweek.com/speedreads/664148/se ... filibuster

And the free schooling was predicated upon accepting Communist principles without the consideration of any others.

That's usually called indoctrination, not education.

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:54 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Cuba is ahead of the US in human rights?

No.

Again with the misplaced absolutes, damn

When I get home and at my computer I'll back this up, but it's unequivocally a true statement.

Start with refuting that quality public education or health care aren't human rights


Just for you RR. :wink:

http://theweek.com/speedreads/664148/se ... filibuster

And the free schooling was predicated upon accepting Communist principles without the consideration of any others.

That's usually called indoctrination, not education.


I'm actually shocked by the Hill piece, but I'll fully believe it when I see it. I have a hard time accepting R legislators' words at face value.

As for free schooling/indoctrination, New Englanders' like Horace Mann embraced free public education well before Engels & Marx set out on their theorizing iirc.

Damn Yankees with their evil integrity, foresight and compassion :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:57 pm 
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Education should be for all. Prisoners included. Even Cuban prisoners who had the temerity to stand up to Castro.

Having said that, Castro was into indoctrination, not education.

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