Why are Muslims the only group that isn't judged on their associations and the bad actions of their fellows? That seems pretty odd when Trump voters are all being lumped together. They share at least one thing in common- they voted for Donald Trump. Clinton's "deplorable" statement was ill-advised, but it wasn't all that wrong, you know.

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Freedom is our Strength.

The same could be set of David Duke and his ilk, and they largely just helped Trump become President here. What do you think we are talking about when we talk about Western values anyway?

Free speech, due process, innocent til proven guilty? MANY on the left don't even believe in that stuff anymore.

Freedom of expression and encouragement of individuality? Again, MANY on both sides of the spectrum here don't fit that description either.

Freedom of the press? Not if our new President-elect has his say.

Freedom of religion? Well, sure, unless they are Muslim.

Seperation of Church and State? Tell that to Mike Pence and Ted Cruz, and let me know when we elect an athiest to lead us(pretty sure Trump is one but hes claiming not to be so whatever)

No matter what your definition is, a large number of Americans will look "incompatible" with it as well, including MANY who represent us in government.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

In "tolerant" Indonesia there are still journalists being arrested for not showing the Prophet enough respect. This woman was flogged in public for standing too close to her boyfriend: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... riend.html

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

When have I ever said that I was a nationalist or that I have an "us vs. them" mentality? That's the nature of the world I was born into 53 years ago. It's not the way I would have set it up. The same thing goes for the ownership of property. Yes, I have owned land. But I think if we look at it from a standpoint of if we were gods and we were setting up a worldwide society, would some people having the right/ability to own the actual ground be something we see as moral and right?

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

Right, but nobody is leaping to defend David Duke or those who share his views, regardless of whether they are law abiding citizens who largely mind their own business.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Why do you hate freedom?

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You've mentioned multiple times a quote about picking your side not because it's the right one but because it's your side.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I believe the United Arab Emirates would be fine to live in, Bahrain or Dubai...seems fairly westernized.

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I know.

It's not very "urban" either.

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I'm defending him in this thread only to the extent that I don't see his views as being incompatible with living in the United States, although I obviously find them deplorable. It's almost laughable to suggest that considering who we just elected President.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That quote doesn't suggest that the man in question is on the wrong side.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

I think Joe's position on the ownership of real estate is interesting.

I was kind of blown away in real estate law with the discussion concerning where the right to ownership of land is derived. I guess it had been something that I took for granted was always present.

One side of me could kind of buy the argument that private ownership is a theft of everyone else's enjoyment. The other side of me is like, fuck off, hippie!

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I didn't really think you were defending him at all. My point is that everyone is entitled to their viewpoints, even if they are reprehensible. I don't think there's any room in society for thought police and litmus tests of beliefs. But that shouldn't prevent us from being able to criticize bad beliefs.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

Right, but it clearly suggests a belief in American Exceptionalism and us vs them, which is all leash was saying, i believe.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I didn't mean it as a slight, so calm down before me and my buddy Seacrest take you to the wood shed.

Based on your posts, I just surmised that you believe in American exceptionalism and that we are a good force in the world because we are "in charge." If I surmised wrong, I apologize (not really, but I have to maintain the appearance of being reasonable occasionally).

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I have no problem with you criticizing bad beliefs, including Muslim beliefs. I only start to take issue with it when it goes further than that and you or others start talking about "incompatible" with living here, which is not only false, but also sounds a bit too close to Trump's "ban them all until we figure this out" rhetoric.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

What I meant was it should be a problem when one believer acts, not just when many do.

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I am a liberal I see a conservative being like Big Fan

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

You don't know.

Of course it is urban. A city is supposed to have a city center and neighborhoods. It is no different a neighborhood than Beverly, Norwood Park, etc. There are plenty of working class people in the neighborhood. I live between a custodial engineer at Loyola U and a police officer. Also, of course, it is within the city.

Again, if you define liberal as Dem and conservative as Repub, Sauganash is voting in a manner very similar to that of other neighborhoods within the city borders

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

What does the type of employees in a neighborhood have to do with it being urban?

You live in an area far more similar to Downers Grove or Naperville. The places you like to make fun of here.

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I do believe in American exceptionalism but I would prefer that we did not need to be "in charge". The problem is that if we fail to take charge, a nation that is less exceptional will do so. Withdrawal and isolationism is simply an abdication of leadership to Moscow or Beijing.

My belief in American exceptionalism is based on who we are as a people. I think it's definitely fraying at the edges right now. And this is my problem with the entire philosophy of "multiculturalism". There is no American ethnic identity. Germans can always fall back on their shared German ethnicity. The Japanese can do the same. They have this ethnic core that holds them together. It's also the thing that breeds nationalism, particularly the ugly brand that is often seen in Europe or the xenophobia that helped cause the downfall of a Japan that appeared poised for world domination. The fact that we lack this shared ethnic identity is a strength. However, without it Americans have to have some basic shared beliefs and values to hold us together. If we don't, we have no country.

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Freedom is our Strength.

If we all believe in nothing, does that count?

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

So "urban" = "gritty and poorish?" Then just say rich and poor.

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"When people want their version of the truth, they go find it, no matter how baseless their beliefs." -- Ken Rosenthal

Well, I don't think immigrants have any special right to demand entry into the U.S. There have always been restrictions and limits on immigration. I don't think it's immoral or evil to suggest taking great care in people who we welcome, especially those who we might have good reason to believe don't share our basic values. That's a far cry from kicking out citizens.

But as far as Donald Trump is concerned, he changes his mind so much and spews out any crazy thought that pops into his head so often, I have no idea if his position is something most Americans would consider reasonable or if it's something obviously outright un-American.

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Freedom is our Strength.

This man is a nihilist, FavreFan. There's nothing to be afraid of.

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Freedom is our Strength.

I don't think someone from Sauganash would like to be called gritty, and I'm sure they don't want to be called poor.

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Well, let's define what urban is to you so I don't infer anything.

I'll start with the basics, Sauganash is located in Chicago and therefore is urban by definition.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Can you name a person who wanted to be called poor, other than Mitt Romney for about 9 months in his life?

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I don't know what sauganash has to do with anything...a place for rich people who have to live in the city for whatever reason.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Hillary wanted people to think she was dead broke. Does that count?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul