Upvoted.

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Correct. Obama's health care plan was a '90's Republican idea that was an alternative to single payer. If you don't think the president who was an advocate of the ACA was huge reason it suddenly became "unpopular," you are ignoring reality. And that's coming from someone who thinks the ACA was a disaster.

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My stance in a nutshell. I would equate it to leading by example.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Nice sentiment but do you think leading by example will help against North Korea or Iran?

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If we're not going to spread our values you can bet your bottom dollar people like Putin will be more than willing to step in to spread theirs.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Not quite. In fact, not at all.

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Freedom is our Strength.

No, but has anything we have done with North Korea worked? They have ignored every agreement we signed with them to stop them from developing nukes.

I suspect we'll find out that Iran kept working on nukes to, but it's too soon for us to know on that. The Koreans duped Clinton, so we'll see how Obama fares with Iran.


My stance is that your army is for defense. I liked what we did after the Taliban ran planes into our buildings. We drove them quickly from power. I wish we would have left after that. You show force when provoked. I am not in favor of defending the South China Sea or Taiwan. I don't want to intervene for Japan or South Korea. I don't don't want to defend Eastern Europe either. Yes, it's naive.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Please explain why. Your basic premise was that if you don't believe in "American Exceptionalism" (which carries connotations with it that we needn't even address, such as manifest destiny, a mandate by God, the height of human civilization), you have no moral ground to criticize anyone.

Am I misinterpreting what you said or is that pretty much it?

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Probably not. Here's the problem, MANY rightfully believe that we shouldn't be the world police and doing so is one of the MANY reasons our country is crumbling. If we aren't leading by example, we have to lead with our military strength. At some point that will lead to our downfall.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I believe there's an argument to be made (whether I agree or not) that the big dog makes the rules, and the U.S. is as benevolent a big dog as we could hope for in a world such as ours. What I find ridiculous is the assertion that if one doesn't hold this view, they excuse the actions of every other entity on Earth. It's nonsense that doesn't take into account the idea by some - right or not - that it's not our job to police the world or that the rest of the world can work out the details of what is appropriate without the constant intervention of the U.S. Hell, that stance is one held by Trump himself.

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The funny thing is that I'm one of them. I don't think we should be Team America: World Police. I also realize that if shit is going to go down, we are the logical and oftentimes needed player to come in and get involved.

Sure we could pull defense spending back, and get all of troops back on home soil. We could cut a huge chunk of aid sent to other countries. All that money could be spent at home to build new roads, bridges, schools, hospitals etc. That would make America better. It's what we probably should do. I just don't know if we realistically CAN do it.

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And I say all that knowing that we sort of suck "helping" out. We drone strike civilians, we depose leaders that we don't like. Its all BS but we think we know better and at the end of the day if a country is going to depose leaders, I trust the USA over China or Russia.


Yes, I realize how stupid this all sounds. I'm tying myself in knots and arguing both sides.

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First, I would disagree that American exceptionalism is necessarily related to Manifest Destiny, although it certainly was used as a justification for such.

My premise is that if you don't believe America and American ideals and values are exceptional, why would the thought of Putin taking the lead upset you? Isn't his leadership just as good as anyone else's?

But here's where the phony baloney comes in. A person can fly a terrorist flag as an avatar but we all know he would never want to live under Hamas.

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Freedom is our Strength.

I don't believe a nation can be as wealthy and powerful as the U.S. and then shrink from the responsibilities such power suggests, either morally or practically. Doing so is simply allowing a Putin or someone even worse to lead.

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Freedom is our Strength.

I imagine Putin wants America to be the world police because it weakens us in just about every way.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

You really could have stopped there. American "Exceptionalism" was the primary basis behind the Monroe Doctrine and "manifest destiny" with all the less savory realities or beliefs that go/went with it. Morality discussions really can't be held in that area.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

I imagine most people are close to your position outside of the hawks.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I can't speak on behalf of Seacrest's avatar, nor do I think his or any other would be a pertinent part of this conversation.

But we must define American Exceptionalism before we could even move forward with such a debate. Here it is, from Google:

In its classic forms, American exceptionalism refers to the special character of the United States as a uniquely free nation based on democratic ideals and personal liberty.

And American ideals are most certainly not "exceptional" anymore unless you consider 99% of all wealth going to 1% of earners. That's about the only area we lead the world... oh, and in military spending. That said, American ideals are far more favorable than a good portion of the world. We still (sort of) have a Democracy. We will (sort of) believe in freedom. We still believe in the idea of education, even though we are terrible at it. But perhaps more importantly, we really do have a government that has a separation of powers that, though eroded, has strong institutions and the strong rule of law. To compare it to Vladimir Putin's beliefs is just hyperbole. One can recognize the downfalls of America without wanting Putin, a known evil and brutal individual with very little regard for human life, to "take the lead"... even though half of Conservative America loves him because they have Daddy Issues.

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I don't believe anyone has suggested America does not have her flaws, but it sounds like you do believe in American exceptionalism.

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Freedom is our Strength.

What?

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Freedom is our Strength.

Stretching our military thin weakens us militarily and economically.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

There are certainly ways for a superpower to exert geopolitical influence without getting mired down in all kinds of ground wars. Coming off of eight years of Obama we have enemies that do not fear us and allies that do not trust us. That Syrian "red line" was about the worst thing Obama did.

The Libertarian idea of disengaging from the rest of the world is not practicable. We have commitments. I'm sure Kirkwood is familiar with the Budapest Security Memorandum. Ukraine and Belarus gave up their nukes in exchange for the honoring of their borders and sovereignty. Should we now allow Putin to steamroll Ukraine?

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Freedom is our Strength.

If I am not mistaken Ukraine can thank Clinton for that. So we should go to war with Russia? Russia knows that we won't attack them. Sure we can get them kicked out of the G8 and do things to hurt their economy but that's it. Clearly nothing we have done in decades have been effective.

President Obama got played when it came to the red line comment. Republicans demanded he get tough and draw a line in the sand and when he did they bscked away and said they weren't going to support a military intervention. Basically the president was on his own.

By every measure we are respected in more places around the world than we were in 2009.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

If you want to discuss the less savory aspects and realities of the Monroe Doctrine or American Exceptionalism, then you have already placed a moral judgement on what they ended up causing.

Which is a discussion worth having. And one you have already started.

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What are those measures you're referencing?

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Freedom is our Strength.

Polls and cooperation.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Amy Poehler is funny in that.

This is all a moot point anyway. Regardless of how well we are rec'd now vs 2009, its all going to crash down when our POTUS tweets about Merkel being very overrated and ugly to boot or Hollande being a dumb loser...

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

That's strength. We all know these broads need to be put in their places.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!