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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:15 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
Hank Scorpio wrote:
denisdman wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Perhaps they feel that way because they believe our way is better but that it isn't our job or moral obligation to spread what we think is better to the rest of the world through force.


My stance in a nutshell. I would equate it to leading by example.


Nice sentiment but do you think leading by example will help against North Korea or Iran?


No, but has anything we have done with North Korea worked? They have ignored every agreement we signed with them to stop them from developing nukes.

I suspect we'll find out that Iran kept working on nukes to, but it's too soon for us to know on that. The Koreans duped Clinton, so we'll see how Obama fares with Iran.


My stance is that your army is for defense. I liked what we did after the Taliban ran planes into our buildings. We drove them quickly from power. I wish we would have left after that. You show force when provoked. I am not in favor of defending the South China Sea or Taiwan. I don't want to intervene for Japan or South Korea. I don't don't want to defend Eastern Europe either. Yes, it's naive.




You just said " lead by example " in your last post, so why would N Korea not developed nukes? If you lead by example than we should disarm our nuclear arsenal.. And as far as using your military for defense only :lol: ...you are all over the place, we are the king of using our military for everything but defense. And we invaded Iraq after 911, the wrong fucking country ..smh

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
By every measure we are respected in more places around the world than we were in 2009.


What are those measures you're referencing?


Polls and cooperation.


The Obama administration has paid Iran more than $10 billion in gold, cash, and other assets since 2013, according to Iranian officials, who disclosed that the White House has been intentionally deflating the total amount paid to the Islamic Republic.

Senior Iranian officials late last week confirmed reports that the total amount of money paid to Iran over the past four years is in excess of $10 billion, a figure that runs counter to official estimates provided by the White House.

The latest disclosure by Iran, which comports with previous claims about the Obama administration obfuscating details about its cash transfers to Iran—including a $1.7 billion cash payment included in a ransom to free Americans—sheds further light on the White House’s back room dealings to bolster Iran’s economy and preserve the Iran nuclear agreement.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Bahram Ghasemi confirmed last week a recent report in the Wall Street Journal detailing some $10 billion in cash and assets provided to Iran since 2013, when the administration was engaging in sensitive diplomacy with Tehran aimed at securing the nuclear deal.

Ghasemi disclosed that the $10 billion figure just scratches the surface of the total amount given to Iran by the United States over the past several years.


Much beloved in Iran...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:40 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
By every measure we are respected in more places around the world than we were in 2009.


What are those measures you're referencing?


Polls and cooperation.


The Obama administration has paid Iran more than $10 billion in gold, cash, and other assets since 2013, according to Iranian officials, who disclosed that the White House has been intentionally deflating the total amount paid to the Islamic Republic.

Senior Iranian officials late last week confirmed reports that the total amount of money paid to Iran over the past four years is in excess of $10 billion, a figure that runs counter to official estimates provided by the White House.

The latest disclosure by Iran, which comports with previous claims about the Obama administration obfuscating details about its cash transfers to Iran—including a $1.7 billion cash payment included in a ransom to free Americans—sheds further light on the White House’s back room dealings to bolster Iran’s economy and preserve the Iran nuclear agreement.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Bahram Ghasemi confirmed last week a recent report in the Wall Street Journal detailing some $10 billion in cash and assets provided to Iran since 2013, when the administration was engaging in sensitive diplomacy with Tehran aimed at securing the nuclear deal.

Ghasemi disclosed that the $10 billion figure just scratches the surface of the total amount given to Iran by the United States over the past several years.


Much beloved in Iran...





We've given Israel over a hundred billion to date.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
By every measure we are respected in more places around the world than we were in 2009.


What are those measures you're referencing?


Polls and cooperation.


The Obama administration has paid Iran more than $10 billion in gold, cash, and other assets since 2013, according to Iranian officials, who disclosed that the White House has been intentionally deflating the total amount paid to the Islamic Republic.

Senior Iranian officials late last week confirmed reports that the total amount of money paid to Iran over the past four years is in excess of $10 billion, a figure that runs counter to official estimates provided by the White House.

The latest disclosure by Iran, which comports with previous claims about the Obama administration obfuscating details about its cash transfers to Iran—including a $1.7 billion cash payment included in a ransom to free Americans—sheds further light on the White House’s back room dealings to bolster Iran’s economy and preserve the Iran nuclear agreement.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Bahram Ghasemi confirmed last week a recent report in the Wall Street Journal detailing some $10 billion in cash and assets provided to Iran since 2013, when the administration was engaging in sensitive diplomacy with Tehran aimed at securing the nuclear deal.

Ghasemi disclosed that the $10 billion figure just scratches the surface of the total amount given to Iran by the United States over the past several years.


Much beloved in Iran...



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:51 pm 
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312player wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
By every measure we are respected in more places around the world than we were in 2009.


What are those measures you're referencing?


Polls and cooperation.


The Obama administration has paid Iran more than $10 billion in gold, cash, and other assets since 2013, according to Iranian officials, who disclosed that the White House has been intentionally deflating the total amount paid to the Islamic Republic.

Senior Iranian officials late last week confirmed reports that the total amount of money paid to Iran over the past four years is in excess of $10 billion, a figure that runs counter to official estimates provided by the White House.

The latest disclosure by Iran, which comports with previous claims about the Obama administration obfuscating details about its cash transfers to Iran—including a $1.7 billion cash payment included in a ransom to free Americans—sheds further light on the White House’s back room dealings to bolster Iran’s economy and preserve the Iran nuclear agreement.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Bahram Ghasemi confirmed last week a recent report in the Wall Street Journal detailing some $10 billion in cash and assets provided to Iran since 2013, when the administration was engaging in sensitive diplomacy with Tehran aimed at securing the nuclear deal.

Ghasemi disclosed that the $10 billion figure just scratches the surface of the total amount given to Iran by the United States over the past several years.


Much beloved in Iran...





We've given Israel over a hundred billion to date.


Does that include clearing out arms stores in Europe during the six day war to keep the state from falling? I think Israel is guilty of plenty, but their unofficial nuclear stockpile is defensive in nature.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:

I don't believe that Barack Obama was an exceptional president. Therefore, I have no moral high ground to criticize Nazis. Exact same logic, right?


Not quite. In fact, not at all.


Please explain why. Your basic premise was that if you don't believe in "American Exceptionalism" (which carries connotations with it that we needn't even address, such as manifest destiny, a mandate by God, the height of human civilization), you have no moral ground to criticize anyone.

Am I misinterpreting what you said or is that pretty much it?


First, I would disagree that American exceptionalism is necessarily related to Manifest Destiny, although it certainly was used as a justification for such.

My premise is that if you don't believe America and American ideals and values are exceptional, why would the thought of Putin taking the lead upset you? Isn't his leadership just as good as anyone else's?

But here's where the phony baloney comes in. A person can fly a terrorist flag as an avatar but we all know he would never want to live under Hamas.


I can't speak on behalf of Seacrest's avatar, nor do I think his or any other would be a pertinent part of this conversation.

But we must define American Exceptionalism before we could even move forward with such a debate. Here it is, from Google:

In its classic forms, American exceptionalism refers to the special character of the United States as a uniquely free nation based on democratic ideals and personal liberty.

And American ideals are most certainly not "exceptional" anymore unless you consider 99% of all wealth going to 1% of earners. That's about the only area we lead the world... oh, and in military spending. That said, American ideals are far more favorable than a good portion of the world. We still (sort of) have a Democracy. We will (sort of) believe in freedom. We still believe in the idea of education, even though we are terrible at it. But perhaps more importantly, we really do have a government that has a separation of powers that, though eroded, has strong institutions and the strong rule of law. To compare it to Vladimir Putin's beliefs is just hyperbole. One can recognize the downfalls of America without wanting Putin, a known evil and brutal individual with very little regard for human life, to "take the lead"... even though half of Conservative America loves him because they have Daddy Issues.


I don't believe anyone has suggested America does not have her flaws, but it sounds like you do believe in American exceptionalism.


How so and which America? Past or contemporary?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:07 pm 
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312player wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
By every measure we are respected in more places around the world than we were in 2009.


What are those measures you're referencing?


Polls and cooperation.


The Obama administration has paid Iran more than $10 billion in gold, cash, and other assets since 2013, according to Iranian officials, who disclosed that the White House has been intentionally deflating the total amount paid to the Islamic Republic.

Senior Iranian officials late last week confirmed reports that the total amount of money paid to Iran over the past four years is in excess of $10 billion, a figure that runs counter to official estimates provided by the White House.

The latest disclosure by Iran, which comports with previous claims about the Obama administration obfuscating details about its cash transfers to Iran—including a $1.7 billion cash payment included in a ransom to free Americans—sheds further light on the White House’s back room dealings to bolster Iran’s economy and preserve the Iran nuclear agreement.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Bahram Ghasemi confirmed last week a recent report in the Wall Street Journal detailing some $10 billion in cash and assets provided to Iran since 2013, when the administration was engaging in sensitive diplomacy with Tehran aimed at securing the nuclear deal.

Ghasemi disclosed that the $10 billion figure just scratches the surface of the total amount given to Iran by the United States over the past several years.


Much beloved in Iran...





We've given Israel over a hundred billion to date.


Obama hates them so much he just guaranteed them $40B over 10 years (largest in history) and they'll still get an additional $2B+ sweetener by Congress every year.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:33 pm 
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To Obama it's only money.Can always print more so give da Yoos buckets of the stuff. Sort of a bribe to Dem Senators and Israelis and talking point for media bosses, hoping to tamp down whining about supposed knife inna back. "I love Yoos!"

Equating Iran and Israel is another knife inna back.

In 24 years when Pres Cotton leaves office, enough non crazy colletch professors will be in place in History Departments that a true history of "The Disaster" can be written and taught to rug rats.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:09 pm 
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SO, our media lies & our national intelligence entities aren't to be trusted, and Irani officials are now a credible source. Gotcha.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Killer V wrote:
SO, our media lies & our national intelligence entities aren't to be trusted, and Irani officials are now a credible source. Gotcha.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Killer V wrote:
SO, our media lies & our national intelligence entities aren't to be trusted, and Irani officials are now a credible source. Gotcha.

Exactly. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Killer V wrote:
SO, our media lies & our national intelligence entities aren't to be trusted, and Irani officials are now a credible source. Gotcha.


See how simple that is?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:27 pm 
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Killer V wrote:
SO, our media lies & our national intelligence entities aren't to be trusted, and Irani officials are now a credible source. Gotcha.




I would say none are trustworthy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:32 pm 
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312player wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Hank Scorpio wrote:
denisdman wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Perhaps they feel that way because they believe our way is better but that it isn't our job or moral obligation to spread what we think is better to the rest of the world through force.


My stance in a nutshell. I would equate it to leading by example.


Nice sentiment but do you think leading by example will help against North Korea or Iran?


No, but has anything we have done with North Korea worked? They have ignored every agreement we signed with them to stop them from developing nukes.

I suspect we'll find out that Iran kept working on nukes to, but it's too soon for us to know on that. The Koreans duped Clinton, so we'll see how Obama fares with Iran.


My stance is that your army is for defense. I liked what we did after the Taliban ran planes into our buildings. We drove them quickly from power. I wish we would have left after that. You show force when provoked. I am not in favor of defending the South China Sea or Taiwan. I don't want to intervene for Japan or South Korea. I don't don't want to defend Eastern Europe either. Yes, it's naive.




You just said " lead by example " in your last post, so why would N Korea not developed nukes? If you lead by example than we should disarm our nuclear arsenal.. And as far as using your military for defense only :lol: ...you are all over the place, we are the king of using our military for everything but defense. And we invaded Iraq after 911, the wrong fucking country ..smh


I am saying we should use our military for defense only. Duh, of course we are not doing that now. It was my entire point.

We should be leading by example, which of course we are not.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:59 am 
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312player wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
By every measure we are respected in more places around the world than we were in 2009.


What are those measures you're referencing?


Polls and cooperation.


The Obama administration has paid Iran more than $10 billion in gold, cash, and other assets since 2013, according to Iranian officials, who disclosed that the White House has been intentionally deflating the total amount paid to the Islamic Republic.

Senior Iranian officials late last week confirmed reports that the total amount of money paid to Iran over the past four years is in excess of $10 billion, a figure that runs counter to official estimates provided by the White House.

The latest disclosure by Iran, which comports with previous claims about the Obama administration obfuscating details about its cash transfers to Iran—including a $1.7 billion cash payment included in a ransom to free Americans—sheds further light on the White House’s back room dealings to bolster Iran’s economy and preserve the Iran nuclear agreement.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Bahram Ghasemi confirmed last week a recent report in the Wall Street Journal detailing some $10 billion in cash and assets provided to Iran since 2013, when the administration was engaging in sensitive diplomacy with Tehran aimed at securing the nuclear deal.

Ghasemi disclosed that the $10 billion figure just scratches the surface of the total amount given to Iran by the United States over the past several years.


Much beloved in Iran...





We've given Israel over a hundred billion to date.


Nas wrote:
Obama hates them so much he just guaranteed them $40B over 10 years (largest in history) and they'll still get an additional $2B+ sweetener by Congress every year.


Nas wrote:
Polls and cooperation.


You missed the point and i believe you did so intentionally.

That's not cooperation.

Not even free gifts to Iran, (remember when you said it was just money owed), can buy the respect of a nation that still wants us dead.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:25 am 
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I'm not talking about Iran. I'm referring to the UN and our allies. No country that hates us will respect us in the next 10+ years.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:26 am 
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Other countries liking or respecting us isn't really a top concern for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:38 pm 
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I guess he has now quietly informed all of the Dept. of Energy/NSA? people that insure the security and maintenance of our nuclear arsenal that they will all be summarily dismissed on day one of his administration. No chain of responsibility/security, no smooth transition as has always been the case. :shock:

Except in JORR-World, this can't be good...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
I guess he has now quietly informed all of the Dept. of Energy/NSA? people that insure the security and maintenance of our nuclear arsenal that they will all be summarily dismissed on day one of his administration. No chain of responsibility/security, no smooth transition as has always been the case. :shock:

Except in JORR-World, this can't be good...


Except that it's fake news.

UPDATED: http://gizmodo.com/trump-just-dismissed ... 1790908093

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Other countries liking or respecting us isn't really a top concern for me.




You don't think things could be much smoother for us if we weren't creating chaos in the middle east and pissing away trillions that could be used on infrastructure here? I know that our soldiers wouldn't be PTSD in airports.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:23 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
312player wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Hank Scorpio wrote:
denisdman wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Perhaps they feel that way because they believe our way is better but that it isn't our job or moral obligation to spread what we think is better to the rest of the world through force.


My stance in a nutshell. I would equate it to leading by example.


Nice sentiment but do you think leading by example will help against North Korea or Iran?


No, but has anything we have done with North Korea worked? They have ignored every agreement we signed with them to stop them from developing nukes.

I suspect we'll find out that Iran kept working on nukes to, but it's too soon for us to know on that. The Koreans duped Clinton, so we'll see how Obama fares with Iran.


My stance is that your army is for defense. I liked what we did after the Taliban ran planes into our buildings. We drove them quickly from power. I wish we would have left after that. You show force when provoked. I am not in favor of defending the South China Sea or Taiwan. I don't want to intervene for Japan or South Korea. I don't don't want to defend Eastern Europe either. Yes, it's naive.




You just said " lead by example " in your last post, so why would N Korea not developed nukes? If you lead by example than we should disarm our nuclear arsenal.. And as far as using your military for defense only :lol: ...you are all over the place, we are the king of using our military for everything but defense. And we invaded Iraq after 911, the wrong fucking country ..smh


I am saying we should use our military for defense only. Duh, of course we are not doing that now. It was my entire point.

We should be leading by example, which of course we are not.




I disagree, we are leading by example, that's why I can't be outraged at Crimea or hacking the DNC or N Korea stocking up on Nukes.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
I guess he has now quietly informed all of the Dept. of Energy/NSA? people that insure the security and maintenance of our nuclear arsenal that they will all be summarily dismissed on day one of his administration. No chain of responsibility/security, no smooth transition as has always been the case. :shock:

Except in JORR-World, this can't be good...


Except that it's fake news.

UPDATED: http://gizmodo.com/trump-just-dismissed ... 1790908093


JORR Conway, you will grasp at any straw to defend your guy. An unnamed source is now relied upon to only partially dispute two named public professionals and the point of the story. :lol: Joe Orr Road Rod Bernstein-esque if you ask me.

As a slight aside, do you remember the havoc raised when Bonzo's clueless buddy fired all the air traffic controllers? Here we go again with more ideological(political) purges and damn the costs.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
I guess he has now quietly informed all of the Dept. of Energy/NSA? people that insure the security and maintenance of our nuclear arsenal that they will all be summarily dismissed on day one of his administration. No chain of responsibility/security, no smooth transition as has always been the case. :shock:

Except in JORR-World, this can't be good...


Except that it's fake news.

UPDATED: http://gizmodo.com/trump-just-dismissed ... 1790908093


JORR Conway, you will grasp at any straw to defend your guy. An unnamed source is now relied upon to only partially dispute two named public professionals and the point of the story. :lol: Joe Orr Road Rod Bernstein-esque if you ask me.

As a slight aside, do you remember the havoc raised when Bonzo's clueless buddy fired all the air traffic controllers? Here we go again with more ideological(political) purges and damn the costs.


:lol: Trump isn't my guy. I would just like coverage to be straight down the fairway. I'm not pulling for the next president's failure.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
:lol: Trump isn't my guy. I would just like coverage to be straight down the fairway. I'm not pulling for the next president's failure.


I didn't realize Trump was bringing out what you perceive to be the Edward R. Murrow in you. It comes off, um, differently to some of us :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:35 pm 
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312player wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Other countries liking or respecting us isn't really a top concern for me.




You don't think things could be much smoother for us if we weren't creating chaos in the middle east and pissing away trillions that could be used on infrastructure here? I know that our soldiers wouldn't be PTSD in airports.


Absolutely. That's something in our best interest.

I don't care if France thinks we're boorish or if Israel is mad about some perceived slight.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
:lol: Trump isn't my guy. I would just like coverage to be straight down the fairway. I'm not pulling for the next president's failure.


I didn't realize Trump was bringing out what you perceive to be the Edward R. Murrow in you. It comes off, um, differently to some of us :lol:


That's fine. As long as Baby Mac respects my grammar I'm happy.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
312player wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Other countries liking or respecting us isn't really a top concern for me.




You don't think things could be much smoother for us if we weren't creating chaos in the middle east and pissing away trillions that could be used on infrastructure here? I know that our soldiers wouldn't be PTSD in airports.


Absolutely. That's something in our best interest.

I don't care if France thinks we're boorish or if Israel is mad about some perceived slight.


I've never heard anyone concerned about offending France or Israel.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:48 pm 
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
312player wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Other countries liking or respecting us isn't really a top concern for me.




You don't think things could be much smoother for us if we weren't creating chaos in the middle east and pissing away trillions that could be used on infrastructure here? I know that our soldiers wouldn't be PTSD in airports.


Absolutely. That's something in our best interest.

I don't care if France thinks we're boorish or if Israel is mad about some perceived slight.


I've never heard anyone concerned about offending France or Israel.

No. only every Republican in the country. Good god man. It's way too early in the day to be this drunk.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Baby McNown wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
312player wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Other countries liking or respecting us isn't really a top concern for me.




You don't think things could be much smoother for us if we weren't creating chaos in the middle east and pissing away trillions that could be used on infrastructure here? I know that our soldiers wouldn't be PTSD in airports.


Absolutely. That's something in our best interest.

I don't care if France thinks we're boorish or if Israel is mad about some perceived slight.


I've never heard anyone concerned about offending France or Israel.

No. only every Republican in the country. Good god man.


:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 80536
Location: Rogers Park, USA
pizza_Place: JB Alberto's
Baby McNown wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
312player wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Other countries liking or respecting us isn't really a top concern for me.




You don't think things could be much smoother for us if we weren't creating chaos in the middle east and pissing away trillions that could be used on infrastructure here? I know that our soldiers wouldn't be PTSD in airports.


Absolutely. That's something in our best interest.

I don't care if France thinks we're boorish or if Israel is mad about some perceived slight.


I've never heard anyone concerned about offending France or Israel.

No. only every Republican in the country. Good god man. It's way too early in the day to be this drunk.


Okay, now we're going to pretend that the fear of offending "them" is about Israel.

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