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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Hillary got more votes than anyone in every election she was in but she lost the last 2.

Hillary Clinton is the Sammy Sosa of Presidential Elections.

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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:18 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
What blacks ask for isn't necessarily equal playing field. They want an equal opportunity. Currently their isn't one existent. Yes Obama was elected but if contrast the campaign he ran versus the campaign Trump ran you see where the disparity truly exists. Obama had to be the non offending black guy. Obama was handcuffed by his race. Trump wasn't. Trump could be as divisive as he wanted to be and it still wasn't offensive to disqualify him.

When you talk about the successful level of other minority groups there is validity but it isn't necessarily overriding. Blacks have the stigma of skin color if a person really wants to term it as such. They don't have the luxury of simply changing their name as a means of assimilating (As the Trumps have done).

Is it really any accident that only black neighborhoods in Chicago are ghettos? You'd be hard pressed to find a white ghetto anywhere in this city. Do you think black unemployment is simply related to black laziness?

When people talk about Prison Reform the first place they should start is the archaic felony laws which prevent you from working if you have a felony.


I don't think an Asian man can change his name to Mr. Smith and assimilate. That was the example I used. Not white guys changing their name.

Black unemployment is due to decreased economic opportunity across the board for people of a certain education/skills level. I don't know what you are saying about ghettos in Chicago. There are plenty of white ghettos across the state as well. Check out places like Farmer City, Illinois. The downtown is two bars and a bunch of boarded up buildings.

Obama not winning like Trump proves what? I don't know of anyone who could have won like Trump did. I think you are too quick to dismiss the election of a black man. It does not mean that black families all have equal opportunity, but race is certainly less important now than education and income level. A black man who went to Harvard has a much better chance of success than a white guy who got an associates from College of Dupage.

I am in total agreement about the felonies.


Black unemployment has historically been 2 or 3 times that of whites. It has been the case even when the education levels are comparable. Even now blacks lag whites when you factor in the unskilled labor numbers. I use Chicago as a prime example because the numbers for blacks Hispanics and Whites are similar in terms of population. about 30% each way. The only ghetto areas to be found are in black and hispanic neighborhoods.


Education lags because of social and economic circumstances that are dire. SOme rise above most don't. We can make it about hard work all we want but most wealth in this country is inherited. Trump didn't rise because of his own greatness.


As I said earlier, there are plenty of white ghettos. Maybe not in Chicago, but plenty in the state.

Historically I am certain that racism played a role in black unemployment. And there is a lingering effect of that, but as I mentioned earlier, Asians who cannot "change their name and assimilate", yet they are outcompeting whites. If there were a racial conspiracy to hold down non-whites this could not be the case.

My point is that I do not believe that the system is stacked against people purely on race. All other things being equal a rich person regardless of their race is going to have more opportunities currently than a poor person. You and I have much more in common than say Trump and I or you and say Robert Johnson.

I do not believe that younger people are as fixated on race. We may never totally end racism, but we are already in a society were you are not cursed to a certain life based entirely on your skin color. The next issue will be raising people out of generational poverty.

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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:24 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
The you will never understand what it's like argument.[/b] If you have some sort of primordial knowledge due to the accident of your heritage then there will always be a divide. I believe these divisions are of our own creating, and that if we really want to solve race issue this special status needs to go away as well. People can understand what it is like to be mistreated, bullied or overlooked. Is it exactly the same? Probably not, but to claim white people will never understand is putting this into the status of religion and original sin.


I think you're talking about two different things here:

1) The philosophical issue of guilt or "original sin"
2) Experiential knowledge

I see the two as separate. Not to speak for Nas, but I interpret the argument "you will never know because you're not xyz" as more along the lines of #2, and intellectually I don't see a problem with that argument. As a matter of fact, I will never know what it's like for someone who is black to be pulled over at night by a cop. And that black person will never know what it's like for me to be pulled over, or for you to be pulled over, etc. I don't see how this basic fact feeds into a larger narrative of "primordial knowledge" or what have you. That argument seems to be a separate issue surrounding guilt that I personally don't think is very persuasive. Even Coates' reparations argument seems to be more grounded in procedure (e.g. the U.S. Government owes the families/individuals it discriminated against some form of compensation...etc.) than it is in philosophy (guilt, original sin, etc.). Coates' article on housing is the one to read in this regard.

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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:38 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
The you will never understand what it's like argument.[/b] If you have some sort of primordial knowledge due to the accident of your heritage then there will always be a divide. I believe these divisions are of our own creating, and that if we really want to solve race issue this special status needs to go away as well. People can understand what it is like to be mistreated, bullied or overlooked. Is it exactly the same? Probably not, but to claim white people will never understand is putting this into the status of religion and original sin.


I think you're talking about two different things here:

1) The philosophical issue of guilt or "original sin"
2) Experiential knowledge

I see the two as separate. Not to speak for Nas, but I interpret the argument "you will never know because you're not xyz" as more along the lines of #2, and intellectually I don't see a problem with that argument. As a matter of fact, I will never know what it's like for someone who is black to be pulled over at night by a cop. And that black person will never know what it's like for me to be pulled over, or for you to be pulled over, etc. I don't see how this basic fact feeds into a larger narrative of "primordial knowledge" or what have you. That argument seems to be a separate issue surrounding guilt that I personally don't think is very persuasive. Even Coates' reparations argument seems to be more grounded in procedure (e.g. the U.S. Government owes the families/individuals it discriminated against some form of compensation...etc.) than it is in philosophy (guilt, original sin, etc.). Coates' article on housing is the one to read in this regard.


I've been pulled over. I have had police pull a weapon on me. I've been thrown into the back of a squad car and scared shitless. To say I would not then understand police harassment because of my race to me means that there is something unique to the race that makes our similar experiences different. Does a rich black person who lives in a gated community know more about police harassment than say Steven Avery?

That's my point.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

The Missing Link wrote:
For instance they were never taught that Columbus was a slave owner.


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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:08 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:

I've been pulled over. I have had police pull a weapon on me. I've been thrown into the back of a squad car and scared shitless.


America wrote:
It was probably a black cop who would later go on to harass a handicapped white kid and also was probably a Cubs fan.


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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:47 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
"Obama won twice" which is the equivalent of saying racism ended with a black president.


I disagree with that. I don't think the fact a black man can be elected president says anything about racism ending. In fact, I think Obama's presidencies proved as much.



That is used far too often as the proverbial escape hatch. Obama had to be the non offensive black guy that denigrated blacks more often than he praised him. He couldn't address any racial issues without there being backlash.


Only a fool would blame Barack Obama for failing to end racism.



No one was expecting him too. You are missing the point. He had to go out of his way to not perpetuate the divide. Lets contrast that with Trump. Did he have to do that?


The thing I will respect the most about Obama is not only did he have to carry the weight of the responsibility of having the most powerful position in the world but he also had to carry an entire race on his back. That's a job that very few people could do as well as he did. I try to keep in mind that being Jackie Robinson isn't easy when I'm criticizing his performance. Trump doesn't have that responsibility.

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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:53 pm 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
"Obama won twice" which is the equivalent of saying racism ended with a black president.


I disagree with that. I don't think the fact a black man can be elected president says anything about racism ending. In fact, I think Obama's presidencies proved as much.



That is used far too often as the proverbial escape hatch. Obama had to be the non offensive black guy that denigrated blacks more often than he praised him. He couldn't address any racial issues without there being backlash.


Only a fool would blame Barack Obama for failing to end racism.



No one was expecting him too. You are missing the point. He had to go out of his way to not perpetuate the divide. Lets contrast that with Trump. Did he have to do that?


The thing I will respect the most about Obama is not only did he have to carry the weight of the responsibility of having the most powerful position in the world but he also had to carry an entire race on his back. That's a job that very few people could do as well as he did. I try to keep in mind that being Jackie Robinson isn't easy when I'm criticizing his performance. Trump doesn't have that responsibility.


He's the first celebrity president and also the first orange president.

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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Was Reagan far enough removed from being a celebrity to be still seen in that light?

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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Check out places like Farmer City, Illinois. The downtown is two bars and a bunch of boarded up buildings.


And it's been tough on the local economy since leash moved up to Naperville.

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Was Reagan far enough removed from being a celebrity to be still seen in that light?



It's all forgotten but Reagan was seen in much the same way Trump is now, though perhaps to a somewhat lesser degree.

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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:10 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
The you will never understand what it's like argument.[/b] If you have some sort of primordial knowledge due to the accident of your heritage then there will always be a divide. I believe these divisions are of our own creating, and that if we really want to solve race issue this special status needs to go away as well. People can understand what it is like to be mistreated, bullied or overlooked. Is it exactly the same? Probably not, but to claim white people will never understand is putting this into the status of religion and original sin.


I think you're talking about two different things here:

1) The philosophical issue of guilt or "original sin"
2) Experiential knowledge

I see the two as separate. Not to speak for Nas, but I interpret the argument "you will never know because you're not xyz" as more along the lines of #2, and intellectually I don't see a problem with that argument. As a matter of fact, I will never know what it's like for someone who is black to be pulled over at night by a cop. And that black person will never know what it's like for me to be pulled over, or for you to be pulled over, etc. I don't see how this basic fact feeds into a larger narrative of "primordial knowledge" or what have you. That argument seems to be a separate issue surrounding guilt that I personally don't think is very persuasive. Even Coates' reparations argument seems to be more grounded in procedure (e.g. the U.S. Government owes the families/individuals it discriminated against some form of compensation...etc.) than it is in philosophy (guilt, original sin, etc.). Coates' article on housing is the one to read in this regard.


I've been pulled over. I have had police pull a weapon on me. I've been thrown into the back of a squad car and scared shitless. To say I would not then understand police harassment because of my race to me means that there is something unique to the race that makes our similar experiences different. Does a rich black person who lives in a gated community know more about police harassment than say Steven Avery?

That's my point.

Most rich black guys almost to a man report similar experiences to RR. There's the story of the MLB player profiled in his own driveway. The black republican senator who said he's pulled over several times a year. Etc.

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 Post subject: Re: MLK Article
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Was Reagan far enough removed from being a celebrity to be still seen in that light?



It's all forgotten but Reagan was seen in much the same way Trump is now, though perhaps to a somewhat lesser degree.


Reagan was an FDR Democrat too. Trump is kinda a mixture of Nixon and Reagan. I wonder if Roger Ailes is responsible for Trump running on themes and slogans or if Trump being great at marketing is the reason. I know Ailes was responsible for Reagan.

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