If you factor Butler actually plays defense, he's having a better year this year than Rose in 2010

Agreed, but you'd have to agree on some sort of reasonable sample size more than just a game. I think a year is a large enough time period.

I really do think the distinction matters, though. There are guys who are celebrated for their being "good" and their longevity, but if I'm picking a starting 5 all time, they're not even on the list.

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I disagree, but ok. Rose was asked to do much more and, at times, literally had no other offensive weapon on the court.

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LITTLE KNOWN FACT = the Chicago bulls only got promoted to play in the NBA once they drafted m-jeff. Therefore, any presumed "bulls history" before m-jeff is laughably infinitesimal and therefore supporting the argument that dee Rhodes is the #3 player in franchise history.

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Chet Walker and Horace Grant both turned in individual seasons that bested Rose's MVP year in WS. The thing is, in terms of Win Shares, the top-20 list only has two non-repeat appearances: Chet Walker and Derrick Rose. But yeah, if you ignore 2 of the greatest Bulls to have ever played ( ), Derrick's single season of greatness doesn't look too shabby...until you consider stuff like True Shooting %, where Rose's MVP campaign ranks 51st all-time in Bulls history, or Win Shares per 48, which has Rose's MVP season ranking 21st all-time. Here are non-Jordan/Pippen players who had better WS/48 seasons with a minimum of 50 game appearances:

Chet Walker (x2)
Horace Grant
Toni Kukoc
Joakim Noah
Clifford Ray
Jimmy Butler
Artis Gilmore (x2)
Steve Kerr

So, Rose's MVP is, by certain metrics, not even in the Top 10 of all time, even when not counting Michael fucking Jordan and Scottie fucking Pippen.

By some of your guys logic Noah is the best center ever because he made top 5 MVP vote list that one season. I don't think another center ever did? Maybe Gilmore?

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Elections have consequences.

I cannot believe people that still disparage the efforts of people like Ronnie Brewer or Jannero Pargo.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

@Jln

Don't ever roll your eyes at me, bitch.

You're relying way too heavily on stats in a sport that doesn't use them well. Rose was constantly taking bail out shots that year, collapsing the defense, and allowed for half of the big men's rebounds off his penetration. But, yeah, Toni Kukoc had a more impactful year.

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No one is saying that.

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Well, if we define a season's greatness by whatever indefinite and ambiguous parameters you and only you use (but still couldn't probably define), then yes, if you ignore Scottie goddamn Pippen and Michael goddamn Jordan, you might, in the right light, be able to argue that Rose's MVP campaign is one of the top-3 seasons of all time.

Rose is nowhere near a top 5 Bull all time.

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You've obfuscated the original intent of the discussion so much as to render it meaningless, and I don't have the energy to go back.

Just always remember that your stat has Steve Kerr with a more dominant performance than Derrick Rose's MVP season.

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MANY of the voices in his head are.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

He will make some dough, sure...he won't get a max deal ever again.

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Rose's 2010 season ranks 42nd in Bulls history in Offensive Rating among players with a minimum of 2000 minutes in a season. In Defensive Rating, his season ranks...42nd.

Rose's MVP season was barely "very good". Even ignoring the seasons of Jordan and Pippen, a barely "very good" season isn't going to rank well in the team's history.

I don't think I like Parkins. He seems like more of a know it all than Bernstein. Still going to give it a few weeks. Maybe he'll calm down.

Yea not sure I dig him either yet. Kind of off putting at times. The show hasn't caught its rhythm either. I guess that is what happens when you only talk once before starting a 4 hour radio show.

Also wtf is with the show. One producer hasn't seen Caddy Shack, Spiegs wont watch Predator, and all the bad mouthing about John Wick. Blah

It saddens me that Orlando wool ridge is forgotten by history

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Derrick's in the Bulls all-time starting 5. You're crazy if you think otherwise. This is a dude who scored 36 points and dished 11 assists in his first playoff game ever. His MVP season speaks for itself. Keith Bogans was their starting shooting guard. Keith Bogans. Averaged 4.4 points that season and stood in the corner all year. Boozer missed 23 games and Noah missed 30. Derrick played and started 81 games. He scored 30+ points in 23 games and 20+ points in 62 games. He carried the team to the best record in the association.

Pasta how could you forget?

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

As one of the worst of any MVP in the history of the league? Yes, it does.

Derrick's MVP season ranks, among all MVP seasons:

51st in Win Shares
52nd in WS/48
50th in PER
33rd in Offensive Rating
31st in Defensive Rating
11th in USG% (Which is awful, because it means he used 33% of the team's possessions to put up shitty offensive numbers)
34th in PPG
10th in ASTPG
47th in eFG%
46th in TS%
53rd in FG%

Derrick won the MVP that year because people got sick of giving it to LeBron. It is widely regarded, and rightly so, as one of the worst MVP seasons in NBA history. Without the MVP dressing everyone would remember that season as they should: a pretty decent season for a PG, but not "elite" and certainly not befitting a "superstar" or one of a team's 5-best players in history.

Howard deserved MVP that year over both of them.

And the primary reason he won wasn't because the media was sick of giving it to Lebron but because he was perceived as the best player on the best team in the regular season (a team that was expected to not do nearly as well) and there was effectively no chance of any of the Big Three getting it the season after they teamed up, just like there's no chance of Durant or Curry winning it this year. I don't even remember many of the metrics people being outraged by Rose winning or anything at the time; even the high usage and lower efficiency stats were seen as necessitated by Chicago having no one who could create their own shot, not as Kobe-like flaws.

"sick of giving it to LeBron" was a wrong word choice, but there is little doubt LeBron was enduring much PR flack throughout all of that season for The Decision, and the Bulls being a couple wins better than the Heat was convenient reason enough in the mind of many sportswriters. But there were plenty of people saying Rose shouldn't win MVP at the time, whether because his defensive contributions were the weakest on a team winning because of defense, or because he was, statistically, barely a top-5 player in the league.

Rose was on the team for 8 years, he started 405 out of 656 games. He had one great season and 7 years of meh.

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Dear God, the Rose talk needs to end, PTFB.

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The defensive argument pushed the most by Neil Paine never made a lick of sense to me. Most publicly available individual level defensive metrics have obviously always been pretty bad but even granting that he was pretty far from the weakest defender in the Bulls starting lineup and he compared favorably to pretty much everyone else at his position that season on a good portion of those metrics.

Dude was cut. He looked like a basketball player

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.