I obviously don't bemoan the politics talk here but I am among those who bemoan the lack of sports talk.

Start some random arguments or debates. I'll start some. Feel free to ignore these and just come up with better. Maybe keep it a rolling thread as a decent distraction.

Anyone over the age of of 45 that likes the NBA here and also doesn't have irrational disdain for modern players, I want to know: who was better - Alex English or Carmelo Anthony? Why?


whats the greatest career cut short by injury? Again I have NBA on the mind but Bill Walton absolutely has to be on the short list.

If Tom Brady retires four years from now with 6 rings and 9 SB appearances is he the greatest athlete in modern history, surpassing, quite naturally, MJ?


Fat Lever or Rondo?

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To the Brady-Jordan argument, fuck no Brady cannot surpass him. There's really nothing he can do at this point to vault him past Jordan. Despite all of Brady's team success and all of his individual accolades I still don't even think he's the best player of all time. I think Jim brown quite clearly dominated his era in a way no other football has ever done. Jordan is among the true icons of sports like Ruth, Ali and Pele. I don't have Brady in the same group.

Also, Ray Lewis is the best defensive player of the past 20-30 years. LT was before my time but I know he was simply phenomenal, but Lewis is probably the best defensive player I've ever seen game in and game out (I'm not old). Neither of these guys are probably good dudes.

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LT was before my time as well but from what I've watched and read I think he was a greater, more impactful player than Ray Lewis.To most, I believe Taylor is regarded as the greatest defensive player of all time.

Brady cant be the overall GOAT. Too much relies on the guys around him and his coaches, which are undoubtedly the NFL's absolute best. I dont think any NFL players could ever be unless they were some sort of machine runningback. Runningbacks are still where the greatest athleticism in the NFL is on display.

Really only basketball players can claim the title of Greatest Athlete Ever, that just a function of only five men being on the court and the nature of the game being so conducive to one man shows.

I do suppose baseball player could one day, just because there is so much dead space between where players statistically top out and what is theoretically possible. Nobody has hit over .400 in a few generations, and even THAT number leaves a full .600 points "on the board". Same applies for slugging, where even an inhuman .1000 slugging percentage is really only 1/4 of what is possible. Pitching is similar, but not the same. If a player could come along in baseball capable of hitting over .600 with power it would be gamebreaking. No other sport leaves so much opportunity in its stats.

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Brady does have a lot of advantages when it comes to team, coaching staff, cheating, etc. But what him and Belichick are accomplishing in this type of an era is unreal. Look how good Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees have been the past decade plus. Those three combined can't touch his playoff credentials. He hasn't played with many hall of fame skill players on his side of the ball. One legendary moss season. Some injury riddled but transcendent Gronk years. A great Corey Dillon year. A couple good Aaron Hernandez years. Kevin Faulk was always underrated but never very good. He has a hell of an argument if him and Belichick keep this train running 4-5 more years. That's a really huge if obviously because he's 39 now but he's still probably the one QB I'd want to win one game right now which is crazy.

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I agree with this. I don't think an NFL player could ever even be in the running is the GOAT. Even a QB doesn't have enough of an impact and relies too much on others. Jordan averaged 35 points per game while shooting extremely efficiently and the same season won defensive player of the year. His overall impact was astounding.It goes even beyond the numbers with him, if you watch him during his prime his fundamentals were perfect, he was like a damn machine.

Career cut short: Bo Jackson had 2 careers cut short.

Gayle Sayers comes to mind,too.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

Too lazy to break the quote down but I absolutely disagree with your RB athleticism point. I think that's without a doubt WR/CB. Maybe Todd Gurley is the athlete Julio Jones is but we'll never know behind that line and QB. Meanwhile Julio Jones basically just stiff armed my entire team into next year on one play last week.

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Contribute or stop hating bills. That was a good post.

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I never believed in the Brady argument anyway, that was some dumb ESPN shit, but you guys are right. The two way impact simply can't be paralleled in other sports. Jordan will forever remain the GOAT

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I don't think Brady does anything better than Rodgers but he has significant advantage when it comes to coaching and talent around him. Rodgers with Belichick and a consistent defense and a good O-line year to year would definitely be winning several super bowls. Jordan was by far the most dominant player of his era, it wasn't even close. He was a force of nature on offense and arguably the greatest defensive player in the game as well. There's no way I'm ever comparing Brady to him. I don't think he's on the same level at all.

Brady had a much quicker release and much better decision making than Rodgers. I've watched a ridiculous amount of Green Bay games obviously. He has flaws. It's silly when people say "Rodgers is the best at every facet of being QB". That's not close to true. I'd take Jordy Nelson and Davante Adams over Edelman and Malcolm Mitchell every day of the week. Obviously coaching is a huge mismatch. You're going for an A+++ to a C- there.

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Jerry Krause was more important to the Bulls 6 titles than fuckin' Phil Jackson.

This is something I've said before. Not just jumping on since Phil has failed with the Knicks.

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The NFC championship was a perfect example of what Rodgers has to deal with. He made a mistake with the interception but his defense never gave him a chance to even compete to win that game.McCarthy is also a very mediocre coach and I feel like coaching is more important in this sport than any other. Brady is undoubtedly great but Belichick puts him in a great position to succeed and they have a brilliant system there where a feel most decent quarterbacks could flourish. At the end of the day I think Rodgers does more for his team than any quarterback.

Even though RR, ltg, Jorr, and Dr Ken are wrong about basically everything I'm gonna need them to weigh in on that English/Melo question.

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Would Jordan be considered the greatest if Krause didn't fleece Seattle for Scottie?

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GO BEARS!!!

I'll give an edge to Brady on decision making, but Rodgers has as much arm talent as anyone who's ever played.

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I agree with your point about coaching and think that's the best counter argument. But I'd say let's wait a week to see how bad last week was. This is statistically the 8th best offense in the history of the NFL and haven't missed a beat in the playoffs.

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No.

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Krause inherited Michael Jordan, he was a lucky motherfucker too. Krause's greatest accomplishments were drafting Grant, trading Polynice for Pippen and trading for Rodman. He obviously did some good things but I don't know if he was more important than Jackson. Phil obviously fell into a great situation. The year before Michael dragged them to game 6 of the eastern conference finals when considering how raw Grant and Pippen were at the time they had no business being there.But with Jordan in his prime and two young talents like Horace and Scottie it was just a matter of time before the Bulls seriously challenged for titles.

That, and the rebuild for the 2nd 3 peat. It was only Jordan and Scottie around for that. He doesn't get enough credit. Rodman was an awesome trade. Remember Brian Williams? Krause was a great GM.

Yes. The younger and strangely much blacker Jordan was better than the Championship Jordan. Didn't have the Championship pedigree but that Jordan was an outright bastard on the court.

I can remember Doug Collins placing him at the point for a string of games and Jordan damn near avg a triple double.

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So basically would Jordan be considered the greatest if he never got a decent supporting cast around him? Maybe not but you can say that about any of the all time greats. Would Russell be considered the greatest winner if he didn't have the all time best coach/executive in Auerbach and a slew of hall of famers? Probably not. Jordan was the best because he dominated the shit out of the game, offensively and defensively. He also rose to the occasion on the biggest stage time after time. Jordan earned his status.

No.

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Rodgers has as much overall talent as anyone who's ever played. The mental part is obviously more important with QBs than any other. For years Brady's consistently crazy quick releases, great stats, ever changing cast, consistently top of the conference record, etc just highlights his talent. Of course coaching had a huge hand in all that and Belichick deserves all the credit he gets. But reading this thread I almost think Brady is still underrated and the idea of that is fuckin insane. Guys in this thread acting like he's a glorified system QB. circumstance always has an under appreciated role in athletes's careers but given what we know about him and what we've seen from him I'm fine saying he would've been a great QB either way, and made his way up either way. Being paired with Belichick means he turned into he GOAT (of QBs, GOAT of football will always be Jerry Rice)

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I don't necessarily agree with this. Jordan was at the absolute peak of his powers in my opinion from 1991-1993 but he was also the best player in the league before that when he wasn't winning championships. In 1989 Collins put Jordan at Point as you said and he tore the league apart. He was clearly the best player in the league that season but he wasn't better in 1989 than he was in 1992.