I'm pretty sure that's wrong. I think if you were drafting all players in NBA history at their peak and all the top GMs in history were participating, all three of the big men I mentioned plus a few others would be taken ahead of Jordan.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

I've never seen a credible ranking of players that puts Shaq ahead of Jordan.

There are other players who may have a case to be equal or better than Jordan. Shaq is not one of them.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Shaq is the most criminally underrated player in NBA history.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

Just saying "size matters" isn't an argument. There are also stats nowadays that account for three pointers and free throws and not just 2-point field goals. In true shooting percentage, which accounts for all three, none of these guys are near the top because they took so MANY shots. Think about it - Jordan affected everything on the court, didn't slow down the tempo (like big centers do), and was just as efficient a post scorer as any of them. What a weapon.

_________________

That doesn't mean he is the best player ever.

Is Jordan a top 10 player?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Shaq was a dominant scorer and is one of the greatest players of all-time. That said, he had some glaring weaknesses. He was a huge liability late in the game due to free throws. Having him on your team means you had no choice but to play at a slower pace. He was also not dominant on the defensive end.

_________________

Yes.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

Every player has glaring weaknesses.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

What was Jordan's? What about Lebron?

_________________

It seems like you want to award style points because an up-tempo game is what you prefer to watch.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

I thought height matters? Who on your list is ahead of Jordan?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

No, I don't care what the style is. Don't try to lump me in with others.

It's a huge advantage to be able to play at any pace. That is inarguable. Having to play at a slower pace every possession is a detriment to some players' skill sets.

_________________

Joe, you are in full MondayMorningTroll Mode, and I laud you for that.

But, assuming this is an actual argument, I am going to tell you that nobody in their right minds takes Jordan anything other than #1. Shaq, Wilt, Kareem - they are all dependent on someone else getting them the ball, and they are the LAST LINE of defense. Jordan does what he wants, when he wants, on both ends of the court, and had the athletic ability to play 4 of the 5 positions.

Lastly, Jordan is the baddest motherfucker on the planet and would rip each of these guys throats out (the ones who he got to face saw that firsthand) - even Wilt. Wilt was big and bad for his time, and I would take him over any big man but Shaq, or maybe Bill Russel, but MJ would work circles around him and make him shoot granny free throws all day if he wanted to score.

This is a non-argument.

The argument starts at who is chosen #2.

_________________
I like thinking big. . . If you're going to be thinking anything, you might as well think big.
-Donald J. Trump, BPE

Jordan was often exploited defensively by quick little guards.

LeBron may be as complete a player as the NBA has seen, but I would say he doesn't have the killer instinct of a Jordan. His backers will portray it as an attribute- "unselfishness"- but I would argue that if you're the best player on the court and you want to be seen that way, you're not supposed to be looking to Irving or Wade to take the last shot.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

Height does matter. The greatest big man is necessarily better than the greatest guard. However, you are not greater than Calvin Murphy.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

I agree with your second paragraph, but your first really doesn't make a case for a center as GOAT. The three guys you named could guard exactly one position. Jordan could have guarded at least 3.

_________________

So who was better than Jordan? Was Tim Duncan? Was Hakeem? Was David Robinson? Was Karl Malone?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This is a typical argument from the Chicagoan of a certain age. It's like it's a fact that was written on the stone tablets carried by Moses- JORDAN IS THE GREATEST AND THOU SHALT ACCEPT NO ARGUMENT TO THE CONTRARY.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

Your argument is literally that he wasn't as tall as other players. That is why it isn't being accepted.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

1 Time Defensive Play of the Year
9 Time All NBA Defensive First Team

_________________

No, it's not. Your argument, though you won't acknowledge it, is that the accomplishments of the big men have to be graded on some sort of curve because of their size.

I realize it's more exciting to see Jordan flying through the air than it is to see Shaq get the ball under the basket and slam it through. It's just not more effective.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

You are the one who is weighing the accomplishments of big men more than guards.

You don't want to compare the accomplishments of Jordan vs. Shaq. You will lose.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I have to agree with Rick here. You haven't really given an argument other than "taller players are automatically better."

_________________

Strawman defined.

_________________

Matt Cassel

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

This sure beats the hell out of my "what are NFL fans going to do now that their favorite TV show is over" thread that I was going to go with to get things moving.

_________________
Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Honestly, Shaq wouldn't even qualify for GOAT in my book. You can't have a deficiency as glaring as his free throw shooting (and as detrimental to your team) and be considered for GOAT. The GOAT doesn't need to be taken out of the game in the 4th when you have the lead.

_________________

I haven't made such an argument at all. Otherwise I'd think you were better than Isiah Thomas.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

Are you certain about that?

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.

Yes.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!