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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:08 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I have to agree with Rick... do you people :P really not see the benefits to living in the suburbs? There are certainly also negatives, as there are with anything, but there are undeniably advantages. Given my upbringing, I could never live in the city. Being there for more than a week or two makes me feel "trapped."

In that vein I'll point out that I have never felt safe in any northern or western suburb except Evanston or Oak Park & certainly no southwestern suburb. Or respected.


You don't feel safe in Wheaton or Naperville or Palatine or Schaumburg? Come on...

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:10 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I have to agree with Rick... do you people :P really not see the benefits to living in the suburbs? There are certainly also negatives, as there are with anything, but there are undeniably advantages. Given my upbringing, I could never live in the city. Being there for more than a week or two makes me feel "trapped."

In that vein I'll point out that I have never felt safe in any northern or western suburb except Evanston or Oak Park & certainly no southwestern suburb. Or respected.

Come out to Palatine. I got you.

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Killer V
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:13 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I have to agree with Rick... do you people :P really not see the benefits to living in the suburbs? There are certainly also negatives, as there are with anything, but there are undeniably advantages. Given my upbringing, I could never live in the city. Being there for more than a week or two makes me feel "trapped."

In that vein I'll point out that I have never felt safe in any northern or western suburb except Evanston or Oak Park & certainly no southwestern suburb. Or respected.


Safe from what?

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pittmike
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:30 am 
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Killer V wrote:
Pence won't be going anywhere.....

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02 ... calls.html

Quote:
Trump reportedly kept Pence in dark about Flynn's Russian phone calls


Safety valve.

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pittmike
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:31 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I have to agree with Rick... do you people :P really not see the benefits to living in the suburbs? There are certainly also negatives, as there are with anything, but there are undeniably advantages. Given my upbringing, I could never live in the city. Being there for more than a week or two makes me feel "trapped."

In that vein I'll point out that I have never felt safe in any northern or western suburb except Evanston or Oak Park & certainly no southwestern suburb. Or respected.


Interesting.

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long time guy
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:39 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Exist is ambiguous.
No it isn't. I listed the stronger reasons why the suburbs started up and why they were superior for many people.

When Chicago was formed women were barred from owning property in it. We all know the racial components at that time. It doesn't mean Chicago exists for white men.



The Suburban boom occurred shortly after blacks moved to Chicago in greater numbers. Was it the only reason no but it is the primary reason. It also isn't an exclusively Suburban thing either. The federal government also improved the transportation system. This made the Suburbs more feasible and attractive. Black migration was the primary motivator however.
There is no reason to believe that it was the "primary factor" either. As I just said, my poor immigrant grandparents had the choice between living in a bad apartment near Douglas Park or moving out to the suburbs where they could own their own home and have a yard that their kids could play in. That choice seems completely obvious and yet you would be arguing that the primary factor is that they wanted to get away from minorities.


Do you want me to establish a correlation between the GI Bill, VA loans, and Housing Discrimination? I could but I really don't want to get to deep in the weeds with this stuff. Housing Improvement Associations were established as a means of keeping blacks out of all white neighborhoods. People can say they moved for whatever reason that they want and I don't want to really address your family's situation because I don't know about it. What I do know is that whites moved out of this city in record numbers once blacks arrived in it. That isn't an accident. White moved out of all white neighborhoods due to the arrival of a few blacks in some cases. Houses were firebombed if only a few blacks moved into the neighborhoods. Check the history of restrictive covenants and redlining. The facts are really irrefutable.

ONce the black advancement couldn't be prevented any longer whites moved out into the suburbs.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:40 am 
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I'm using my GI Bill currently. I hope that doesn't make me suspect.

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Regular Reader
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:43 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Exist is ambiguous.
No it isn't. I listed the stronger reasons why the suburbs started up and why they were superior for many people.

When Chicago was formed women were barred from owning property in it. We all know the racial components at that time. It doesn't mean Chicago exists for white men.


This is turning into a JORR-like defense of the Trump coverage. The 800lb gorilla is right there but most of the discussion now going seem to be attempting to marginalize that reality.

As if places like Yorkville and Franfort have exploded because some still need more distant locales for space, questionable schools and more Cooper Hawk style places. And less people of color living close by in mythical "Chicagoland"
My grandparents moved from a bad cramped apartment in what is currently a bad Chicago neighborhood out to a suburb where they could own their own house and have a yard and still get into the city by train when they needed to. Considering they were still considered poor immigrants at the time makes it hard to believe that they were doing it for any other reason than it provided a chance to do things they couldn't dream about in the city. I've lived in suburbs my whole life outside of a three year stretch where I lived in a "downtown area" that wasn't Chicago in Illinois. Go ahead and say what you think of me and my family and the decision that was made back then and the decision I make now if you really want. It's just amazing how so many people who live in the city are willing to completely ignore that the suburbs offer many advantages that have nothing to do with race.


Rick, I don't think anyone is imputing any unsavory motives on you or your grandparents. Just that you seem to be overzealous in attempts to negate a very large reality.

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Regular Reader
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:44 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
I'm using my GI Bill currently. I hope that doesn't make me suspect.

Always you, you.....Libertarian. :P :lol:

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pittmike
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:46 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Exist is ambiguous.
No it isn't. I listed the stronger reasons why the suburbs started up and why they were superior for many people.

When Chicago was formed women were barred from owning property in it. We all know the racial components at that time. It doesn't mean Chicago exists for white men.



The Suburban boom occurred shortly after blacks moved to Chicago in greater numbers. Was it the only reason no but it is the primary reason. It also isn't an exclusively Suburban thing either. The federal government also improved the transportation system. This made the Suburbs more feasible and attractive. Black migration was the primary motivator however.
There is no reason to believe that it was the "primary factor" either. As I just said, my poor immigrant grandparents had the choice between living in a bad apartment near Douglas Park or moving out to the suburbs where they could own their own home and have a yard that their kids could play in. That choice seems completely obvious and yet you would be arguing that the primary factor is that they wanted to get away from minorities.


Do you want me to establish a correlation between the GI Bill, VA loans, and Housing Discrimination? I could but I really don't want to get to deep in the weeds with this stuff. Housing Improvement Associations were established as a means of keeping blacks out of all white neighborhoods. People can say they moved for whatever reason that they want and I don't want to really address your family's situation because I don't know about it. What I do know is that whites moved out of this city in record numbers once blacks arrived in it. That isn't an accident. White moved out of all white neighborhoods due to the arrival of a few blacks in some cases. Houses were firebombed if only a few blacks moved into the neighborhoods. Check the history of restrictive covenants and redlining. The facts are really irrefutable.

ONce the black advancement couldn't be prevented any longer whites moved out into the suburbs.


I do not intend to disagree with your post in total but aside from condo and townhouse associations I really do not think I have heard about subdivision single home HOA's until like 10 years ago.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:54 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Do you want me to establish a correlation between the GI Bill, VA loans, and Housing Discrimination? I could but I really don't want to get to deep in the weeds with this stuff. Housing Improvement Associations were established as a means of keeping blacks out of all white neighborhoods. People can say they moved for whatever reason that they want and I don't want to really address your family's situation because I don't know about it. What I do know is that whites moved out of this city in record numbers once blacks arrived in it. That isn't an accident. White moved out of all white neighborhoods due to the arrival of a few blacks in some cases. Houses were firebombed if only a few blacks moved into the neighborhoods. Check the history of restrictive covenants and redlining. The facts are really irrefutable.

ONce the black advancement couldn't be prevented any longer whites moved out into the suburbs.
Once again, I acknowledge that racism was involved in housing back then and it sadly still exists. It still isn't proof that not wanting to live by black people was the primary reason people moved to the suburbs and why they live there today. It is much more logical that it was a choice between living in a run down and small apartment vs. a bigger house with a yard and access to the city by train.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:56 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Rick, I don't think anyone is imputing any unsavory motives on you or your grandparents. Just that you seem to be overzealous in attempts to negate a very large reality.
What reality are we talking about here? The idea here seems to be that suburban living is because you want to stay away from minorities and they are built on racism. Of course I'm going to take offense to that idea.

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Don Tiny
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:59 am 
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Killer V wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I have to agree with Rick... do you people :P really not see the benefits to living in the suburbs? There are certainly also negatives, as there are with anything, but there are undeniably advantages. Given my upbringing, I could never live in the city. Being there for more than a week or two makes me feel "trapped."

In that vein I'll point out that I have never felt safe in any northern or western suburb except Evanston or Oak Park & certainly no southwestern suburb. Or respected.


Safe from what?

Myself and the other devil white men :twisted: ... which is a pretty fair point ... except for the fraction of a percent that actually have a sense of rhythm and don't listen to modern cracker country music, I hate white people too.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:00 am 
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Don Tiny wrote:
Killer V wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I have to agree with Rick... do you people :P really not see the benefits to living in the suburbs? There are certainly also negatives, as there are with anything, but there are undeniably advantages. Given my upbringing, I could never live in the city. Being there for more than a week or two makes me feel "trapped."

In that vein I'll point out that I have never felt safe in any northern or western suburb except Evanston or Oak Park & certainly no southwestern suburb. Or respected.


Safe from what?

Myself and the other devil white men :twisted: ... which is a pretty fair point ... except for the fraction of a percent that actually have a sense of rhythm and don't listen to modern cracker country music, I hate white people too.

I assume our mutual love for "Black water" keeps me on the good white people list, for now.

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long time guy
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:34 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Do you want me to establish a correlation between the GI Bill, VA loans, and Housing Discrimination? I could but I really don't want to get to deep in the weeds with this stuff. Housing Improvement Associations were established as a means of keeping blacks out of all white neighborhoods. People can say they moved for whatever reason that they want and I don't want to really address your family's situation because I don't know about it. What I do know is that whites moved out of this city in record numbers once blacks arrived in it. That isn't an accident. White moved out of all white neighborhoods due to the arrival of a few blacks in some cases. Houses were firebombed if only a few blacks moved into the neighborhoods. Check the history of restrictive covenants and redlining. The facts are really irrefutable.

ONce the black advancement couldn't be prevented any longer whites moved out into the suburbs.
Once again, I acknowledge that racism was involved in housing back then and it sadly still exists. It still isn't proof that not wanting to live by black people was the primary reason people moved to the suburbs and why they live there today. It is much more logical that it was a choice between living in a run down and small apartment vs. a bigger house with a yard and access to the city by train.



It was known as "white flight" for a reason Brick. Didn't apply in every instance but in most cases it did.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:36 am 
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The suburbs were built on racism. So was this country. So it seems rather pointless to single out suburbanites as possible racists.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:41 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Do you want me to establish a correlation between the GI Bill, VA loans, and Housing Discrimination? I could but I really don't want to get to deep in the weeds with this stuff. Housing Improvement Associations were established as a means of keeping blacks out of all white neighborhoods. People can say they moved for whatever reason that they want and I don't want to really address your family's situation because I don't know about it. What I do know is that whites moved out of this city in record numbers once blacks arrived in it. That isn't an accident. White moved out of all white neighborhoods due to the arrival of a few blacks in some cases. Houses were firebombed if only a few blacks moved into the neighborhoods. Check the history of restrictive covenants and redlining. The facts are really irrefutable.

ONce the black advancement couldn't be prevented any longer whites moved out into the suburbs.
Once again, I acknowledge that racism was involved in housing back then and it sadly still exists. It still isn't proof that not wanting to live by black people was the primary reason people moved to the suburbs and why they live there today. It is much more logical that it was a choice between living in a run down and small apartment vs. a bigger house with a yard and access to the city by train.



It was known as "white flight" for a reason Brick. Didn't apply in every instance but in most cases it did.
So now we are using terms meant to portray people a certain way as proof they are a certain way?

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:43 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
The suburbs were built on racism. So was this country. So it seems rather pointless to single out suburbanites as possible racists.
That's the funny thing. There is no doubt that discriminatory housing practices existed and even still exist. They almost all predate the concept of a suburb.

It's pretty funny to think that Chicago was a diversity utopia until the day that the first Chicago suburb was built and suddenly all those city dwellers suddenly had to get out because of racism and now people live in the suburbs for the same reason.

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Don Tiny
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:55 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
Killer V wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I have to agree with Rick... do you people :P really not see the benefits to living in the suburbs? There are certainly also negatives, as there are with anything, but there are undeniably advantages. Given my upbringing, I could never live in the city. Being there for more than a week or two makes me feel "trapped."

In that vein I'll point out that I have never felt safe in any northern or western suburb except Evanston or Oak Park & certainly no southwestern suburb. Or respected.


Safe from what?

Myself and the other devil white men :twisted: ... which is a pretty fair point ... except for the fraction of a percent that actually have a sense of rhythm and don't listen to modern cracker country music, I hate white people too.

I assume our mutual love for "Black water" keeps me on the good white people list, for now.

Image

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:59 am 
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I'm not sure why everyone is debating. All acknowledge that some people moved to the suburbs for the same reason as BRick's grandparents. All also acknowledge that people moved to the suburbs to get away from minorities. All acknowledge that people still move to suburbs for both reasons.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Nas wrote:
I'm not sure why everyone is debating. All acknowledge that some people moved to the suburbs for the same reason as BRick's grandparents. All also acknowledge that people moved to the suburbs to get away from minorities. All acknowledge that people still move to suburbs for both reasons.

Some of us justifiably take exception to statements like "suburban living is code for no black people"

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
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FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm not sure why everyone is debating. All acknowledge that some people moved to the suburbs for the same reason as BRick's grandparents. All also acknowledge that people moved to the suburbs to get away from minorities. All acknowledge that people still move to suburbs for both reasons.

Some of us justifiably take exception to statements like "suburban living is code for no black people"


Well it's wrong in MANY cases and right in others.

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FavreFan
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Nas wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm not sure why everyone is debating. All acknowledge that some people moved to the suburbs for the same reason as BRick's grandparents. All also acknowledge that people moved to the suburbs to get away from minorities. All acknowledge that people still move to suburbs for both reasons.

Some of us justifiably take exception to statements like "suburban living is code for no black people"


Well it's wrong in MANY cases and right in others.

:lol:

If I just start calling random people an asshole, racist, or pedophile you could say the same thing. That's not a justification.

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
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FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm not sure why everyone is debating. All acknowledge that some people moved to the suburbs for the same reason as BRick's grandparents. All also acknowledge that people moved to the suburbs to get away from minorities. All acknowledge that people still move to suburbs for both reasons.

Some of us justifiably take exception to statements like "suburban living is code for no black people"


Well it's wrong in MANY cases and right in others.

:lol:

If I just start calling random people an asshole, racist, or pedophile you could say the same thing. That's not a justification.


My initial post is completely accurate. Trying to identify which people did it for the wrong reason is pointless.

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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Saying that some people noved to the suburbs to get away grom minorities is kind of a pointless statement, though. It doesn't indicate how many or why specifically.

What if I said "some black people hate gay people"? Does that really carry any meaning since it's an obviously true statement (because people of every color hate gays - it's just a small amount)?

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
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Saying that some people noved to the suburbs to get away grom minorities is kind of a pointless statement, though. It doesn't indicate how many or why specifically.

What if I said "some black people hate gay people"? Does that really carry any meaning since it's an obviously true statement (because people of every color hate gays - it's just a small amount)?


It's not pointless. What's pointless is trying to determine the percentage of them. "Some" should cover it for both.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Nas wrote:
I'm not sure why everyone is debating. All acknowledge that some people moved to the suburbs for the same reason as BRick's grandparents. All also acknowledge that people moved to the suburbs to get away from minorities. All acknowledge that people still move to suburbs for both reasons.
There wouldn't be an argument if people weren't saying racism was the primary reason to live in the suburbs.

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Nas
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm not sure why everyone is debating. All acknowledge that some people moved to the suburbs for the same reason as BRick's grandparents. All also acknowledge that people moved to the suburbs to get away from minorities. All acknowledge that people still move to suburbs for both reasons.
There wouldn't be an argument if people weren't saying racism was the primary reason to live in the suburbs.


That clearly isn't true for most people.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
I'm not sure why everyone is debating. All acknowledge that some people moved to the suburbs for the same reason as BRick's grandparents. All also acknowledge that people moved to the suburbs to get away from minorities. All acknowledge that people still move to suburbs for both reasons.
There wouldn't be an argument if people weren't saying racism was the primary reason to live in the suburbs.


That clearly isn't true for most people.
It would seem as if JORR, RR, and ltg believe it is.

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leashyourkids
 Post subject: Re: Impeach Pence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:27 pm 
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SOME minorities move the city because they are prejudiced against people who can't dance.

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