It's about investment and safety before anything else.

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I agree. Right up to the point of comfortably relying on the traditional system of checks and balances. And this is what was so damned infuriating about Obama's willingness to sit on all of this info with some misguided faith in the mythical better nature of the current group of party first "leaders".

It's a sad day when ultra right wing (not old school Republican, mind you) politicians blindly lead the country down this road. And neo-liberals comply.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

and price of a home. What do you want? mortgage on a 1,200 square foot condo in an OK neighborhood or for the same price mortgage on a brand new 4 bedroom 2,500 sq foot home with a yard? What's what living in the burbs can afford you. You won't get that in the city unless you have millions.

People moved to the suburbs after WWII because it became affordable and commutable.

What has been called "white flight" is really the flight of those who have means. Working or middle class minority families moved to the suburbs as well as white families for the same reasons, it affords a higher quality of life for the price spent.

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“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson

You're using alternative facts as a means of degrading the intelligence community. The intelligence community works for the President. They carry out the policies of the President. They don't make policy and hence they weren't responsible for the actions listed above. Eisenhower and Kennedy are responsible for the Bay of Pigs. Eisenhower and Dulles were responsible for Mossadegh's ouster. Nixon was responsible for Allende. CIA simply followed orders in each instance.

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Some of the most atrocious acts committed in the history of civilization were done by people just following orders.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I don't think that really changes his point.

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You can't fault the CIA for carrying out the orders of the President. It is their job.

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We'd have to look at specific instances, but you're completely wrong. By your logic, the Germans who operated Auschwitz were not responsible for the things they did. Just following orders. That's some scary logic brother.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That is a gross oversimplification.

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Only if you didn't read what it was in response to

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You can't compare those instances to what happened in Germany. They are different on a number of levels. In the case of the CIA they don't make policy. President does and thus he is the person ultimately responsible. A person that doesn't carry out the orders of the President could possibly be guilty of treason.


Using your logic then there shouldn't be a CIA.

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FF is Truman to blame for nuking Japan or were the soldiers flying the planes?

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Dawson: Yeah, we did. We were supposed to fight for people who couldn't fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Hiroshima.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Farve Fan just put you all wrapped up nice a tight and put you to sleep in a trick bag. They spent a lot of effort, money and 80 years tracking down old Nazis in S. America and it was for naught as it was only Hitler's fault.

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Elections have consequences.

No, Mike. Just no.

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Did you ever disobey an order that you didn't agree with?

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Yes. But I also was never ordered to kill an innocent person. That would've made the decision easy.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

What are the levels they are different on? Because everything you said after that applies to both.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Truman is to blame if you're only letting me choose one but I'm certainly not going to say the pilots were not responsible for what they were doing.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Not ideal but greater good and all

Orchestrating the Holocaust is quite different than orchestrating a coup DE tat. Guys being instructed to blow brains out is sort of different than guys being instructed to overthrow a political leader. The outcome is quite different which makes the logic faulty.

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Those decisions were/are based on the input and desires of the intelligence community. You seem to be advocating for allowing the Deep State vast unchecked power.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I don't think that decision would have been quite as easy for you as you believe.

Jordan B. Peterson is a professor who, somewhat unfortunately, is now known more for his refusal to bend to the whims of the language police than for his scholarship, but his great academic work is Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief. In it he discusses subjects like what the readers/his students would have done had they been Germans in 1940. Of course everyone insists they would have stood up to Hitler. In fact, that's doubtful.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Seeing as how standing up to the Hit man would've more than likely resulted in your own summary execution , I'd agree.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

The intelligence community provides them with the information and the President makes the call. Often times the information conflicts.

With Allende it was Nixon who stated that he was going to make his economy bleed. The President cherry picks the information bases upon whatever his political proclivities happens to be. Same thing happened with Bay of Pigs. Castro was persona non grata so Kennedy favored the Intel which involved getting rid of him.

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Pence is setting himself up very nicely. Sneaky move by Pence to have his staff leak that he was never told about Flynn's sanctions discussions with Russia. This snake is no doubt undermining Trump to be seen as a martyr unfairly caught in a dysfunctional situation.

Unfortunately, if you were to kick out Trump and the Serpent in Eden you're left with Gutless Ryan. Sheesh.

This goes against all that I've been taught by Hollywood about the military.

I guess they need to change the terminology from "orders" to "suggestions" or "requests?"

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Have you ever met FavreFan? The man is a walking firebrand of discontent. I have no doubt he would piss on the shoes of a full colonel.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

It absolutely wouldn't. FF is a good man, yes, but it's very idealistic to believe that even a good man would have the will to disobey an order in such a situation. Additionally, if everyone in our "system" operated that way, it would completely ruin the effectiveness of the military or intelligence communities. Individuals making judgment calls on the ethics of what they are ordered to do would cause enormous problems. Often, I don't think they necessarily even have all the facts to make such a decision. For example, when the Seals went in on Bin Laden, I remember them saying they weren't even 100% sure who the target was... they only had a physical description. It'd be pretty difficult to have the necessary information to start making split-second ethics decisions when you aren't even given all the information.

Regarding Nazi Germany, that wouldn't have been easy, either. Clearly, what they were doing was wrong, but if you disobeyed the orders, you would undoubtedly be dead within minutes. I understand that the Geneva protocol as well as other doctrines categorize the people who "followed orders" as war criminals, but I have to believe that that is out of necessity and to eliminate the convenient excuse of just "following orders" for those who really weren't just "following orders."

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