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Of coarse the guy who gave freedom is the fall guy! he was a republicen!!!

Not that guys like JESSE and AL and HILARY RODDAM caused this,,,,,,,, just ask them!!!!!!

then again i dont LOVE what abe did,the slaves had it better then today,,,food,houseing,cloths,jobs....................
more then the dems of done for them??????!!!!!#'!!!

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yeah, It's Big Brane!

You forgot Obama, the man most responsible for deteriorating race relations in the 19th, 20th, 21st, and 22nd centuries.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I agree that Lincoln's disregard for the Constitution is a serious flaw and isn't talked about enough. However, it's curious you would criticize him for that in the same thread you're praising FDR

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Some bad George Washington takes in this thread. He was a slave owner and that's horrible but outside of that major character flaw he was literally a perfect founding President.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate4.htm

"LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: It will be very difficult for an audience so large as this to hear distinctly what a speaker says, and consequently it is important that as profound silence be preserved as possible.

While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."

It's stuff like this that leads to fascinating philosophical debates about things like the conflict between absolutism and relativism. It's nice to believe in absolutes but history presents a bunch of thorny problems when you really examine those views across time and space. Lincoln is probably expressing views that are totally consistent with the norms of of 19th century society. Obviously we find these views to be retrograde and abhorrent today, but we're only doing so by using 21st century philosophical and moral views to assess those statements. I think the challenge is to ask whether or not you can consider someone upright or moral or whatever using the standards of that person's lifetime, even if you find those standards to be woefully inadequate compared to the standards of today. But when you begin to ask those kinds of questions, you get into relativizing, which is something people consider to be a cop out. But I think relativizing is the more rewarding path - the other option being consigning everyone to the dustbin of history just because you had the benefit of being born after them. We do that to people who lived before us, and the same thing will be done to us 50-100 years from now. All you're doing is just reaffirming your values/standards/etc. while nothing is truly learned about the person you're studying.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

It's probably also worth mentioning, in regards to history and relativism, that we were the last western country to abolish slavery and we did it long after Europe already had. The Somerset Decision came before we even won our independence. Relativism only excuses so much.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Exactly! MANY understood how wrong and horrible slavery was in America. MANY fought and died to get it abolished for that reason. Lincoln wasn't one of them. That's why the Lincoln propaganda really sickens me.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Guilty. It's somewhat different but you're still right.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Historical relativism is necessary. Lincoln abolished slavery. Had he been an absolute idealist, it's hard to say that he would have accomplished such a feat. He probably never would have been elected. Would it have been great if he were a bleeding heart who poured every ounce of his being into the end of injustice? Sure... but then he'd just be Bernie Sanders.

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Its also worth mentioning, in regards to history and relativism, that slavery was abolished In Europe proper. In their South and Latin America colonies, slavery existed well into the 1800s.

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Oh, shit... Frank just smacked the fuck out of FF.

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During the Civil War, British and French Empires controlled most of the world. The imperial subjects in those territories were basically slaves. That lasted well into the 20th Century.

Lincoln gave his House Divided Speech in 1858. He knew slavery should not go on. And the entire South rebelled as a result of his election. Bolded part simply is not true.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

His views on slavery were well known. Lincoln did NOT oppose slavery in the south. He was very clear about that. He didn't want it to spread to the north. Lincoln wasn't a man with strong convictions or great moral character like MANY want us to believe. He was a great politician that made a decision that weakened and ultimately destroyed his opponent.

He also gave us the worst president in history of the country and that shouldn't be forgotten either.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

What did Lincoln have to do with Obama?

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I'm not sure Trump can trump Andrew Johnson for the title of worst president.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

1. Argyle
2. Jerry
3. Marvin

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"Now comes good sailing. Moose. Indian."

Just like Shaq.

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Lincoln had nothing to do with James Buchanan. And this revisionist history on him is beyond harsh. George Washington was the symbol of the Southern planter class that ensured slavery would go on for another generation, yet the man who ended slavery and was murdered for it is not pure enough for you.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Yeah, Nas, I love you, but this stance is bizarre.

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C'mon! #1, Trump will be worse. #2, You make it sounds like Lincoln shot himself in the head.

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I'm not saying Lincoln was an awful president. I'm saying that he isn't better than Washington or the Roosevelts and that there is a lot of propaganda about his time in office that we've all had shoved down out throats our entire lives.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Well, I never believed that he hunted vampires.

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Nas if you're going to penalize Lincoln for his tacit approval of southern slavery, you should be all that excited to promote Teddy R. as a top 3 president. His attitude/policy towards the Belgian Congo was an abomination.

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Sung...he sung the legislation, not singed

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Lincoln-Manuel Miranda?

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I'm just shocked that Nas didn't have Bush I first

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

did all the heavy lifting for an entire nation and made it look easy, which makes some people think that what he did WAS easy

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.