...this has been the most interesting thread this week. I'm thinking of showing it to my office neighbor, a US history scholar, and ask him his opinion in a judge Judy-esqe decision.

_________________

He will recognize that many of Lincoln's public statements were made for political expedience and may not accurately reflect his personal opinions. We have not really delved into that aspect as we perform this postdated exploration of his heart.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Despite all the incorrect things that have been said about Lincoln in this thread, does his mindset really matter? Looking back on presidents, I think we should really look at the results. The question isn't whether Abe Lincoln was pure in his heart.

Looking forward, I think it makes sense to look at a president's character and beliefs. Looking backward, it's pretty much irrelevant. Just judge the results.

_________________

I have and it is difficult for me to give him all the credit for a war he didn't start and an issue that he didn't care much about. The outcome obviously was an end to slavery but Lincoln played a minor role in it

_________________

Do you even read what people write? I addressed each of those issues earlier. I never said that he was a supporter or slavery or slave owners. You are falsely attempting to claim that he was some sort of anti slave craving abolitionist. THat is not the case. He predicted an end to slavery. He had little interest in bringing about its demise however. The Civil War was forced upon him by a slaveowning elite seeking expansion for their evil and immoral system. He fought the war in an effort to prevent expansion. He didn't fight it as a means of ending slavery.

_________________

These things would be a lot easier to discuss if you and others were willing to have an honest discussion. Instead you all have decided lying or not actually reading posts is best.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Stop saying this, it isn't true. Georgia didn't fight a war because Wisconsin was free. In fact, Dred Scott was decided in 1857, which ruled that outlawing slavery in federal territories was unconstitutional, it was a huge win for Southern constitutionalists, who didn't actually care about slavery in the expansion territories, but cared about the representation and preservation of their slavery.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

After winning the election of 1864, Lincoln made the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment his top legislative priority, beginning his efforts while the "lame duck" session was still in office.[44][45] Popular support for the amendment mounted and Lincoln urged Congress on in his December 6 State of the Union speech: "there is only a question of time as to when the proposed amendment will go to the States for their action. And as it is to so go, at all events, may we not agree that the sooner the better?"[46]

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Lincoln's a point to scoreboard and spike the football top President. Well if nobody killed him, he could have.

don't forget he was a vampire hunter too

I know there is a tendency to disagree regardless of subject matter but the issue of slavery expansion was the dominant issue during the 1850's. It wasn't about existing states either. It was about Western territories so I don't know why you mention Wisconsin. It is a non sequitor. Kansas- Nebraska act directly related to this particular issue and issues related to the Missouri Compromise also began to creep up again.

The feeling regarding the need to expand was so prevalent that Southern Plantation owners strongly considered adding Cuba as a slave state. They squashed it once they realized the logistical problems that it would create.

_________________

Because it wasn't a state until 1848, and the issue of slavery expansion--which, again, the would-be Confederate states didn't care about slavery existing in those territories per se, they cared about laws passed banning slavery in those territories being turned on them--had to do with the Ordnance of 1787 and the Northwestern Territories, of which what would become "Wisconsin" was a part, until 1848.



Right, because SCOTUS declared the Missouri Compromise--specifically the outlawing of slavery in federal territories--as outside the scope of authority of Congress.

None of this means that Southern states gave a shit about slavery becoming the norm in the expanding territories. They wanted to prevent laws outlawing slavery in those territories from being turned on them. You have yet to answer why Mississippi would give a shit about slavery in land acquired via the Louisiana Purchase.

Personally I thinking ending slavery was pretty cool.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Very little here makes sense. This is pretty much common knowledge

A Nation Divided: The Political Climate of 1850s America · The Benjamin Hedrick Ordeal: A Portait of Antebellum Politics and Debates Over Slavery · Civil War Era NC
http://cwnc.omeka.chass.ncsu.edu/exhibi ... calclimate

_________________

My history professor friend:

_________________

Yeah, but despite Lincoln ending slavery and saying a whole bunch of things about how awful slavery is, can your friend show us exactly how little Lincoln actually cared about ending the practice? Thanks.

Some of you may not be aware that I was once a high school history teacher. I could settle this argument rather easily. But... I also wrote the best selling book, Killing Lincoln. If you want to know the real truth, you'll just have to read the book.

_________________
Yeah, I'm obnoxious, yeah, I cut people off, yeah, I'm rude. You know why? Because you're busy.

But did you really read the posts of the Lincoln haters?

_________________
Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Apparently he didn't or much of anything else related to the period. Neither have you for that matter.

_________________

I think it would be pretty enjoyable to have a show Drunk History Deconstruction

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

You pass yourself off as this great historian, but you regularly get your facts wrong. In this thread you project that Lincoln did not care about slavery despite: it being the dominate issue of his era, the fact that he literally said "A house divided cannot stand" and his election being enough for the South to rebel before he even took any actions. You then started that you did not care about his thoughts, just his actions, which were to end slavery.

Your problems with facts did not start in this thread either, you stated that Hitler won a majority democratic victory in Germany in a previous thread.

Rather than call others ignorant why not just stick to what occurred in history, and the best we know is that Lincoln did not approve of slavery and he won a war to end it. Speculation as to what he would have done had the South not rebelled is just that. And claims to know his true feelings and motivations based on his political speeches is sloppy history at best.

_________________
Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

Facts that were established which were ignored:

1. Emancipation came 2 years after the war began and excluded slave states not fighting alongside of the confederacy.

2. The Civil War was based on the South's desire to place slavery in Western Territories


3. Lincoln and Union initially ignored slavery for fear that it would alienate Northerners opposed to fighting for blacks.


4. Lincoln and the quotes that you cited merely state some opposition to slavery. It doesn't mean that he sought to end it. He never did contrary to all of the pontificating existing right now. I never stated that he was for slavery. He never felt strongly enough to seek and end to it. Nas cited a quote which perfectly illustrates how he felt about the issue and you completely ignored it. You have ignored just about everything else relative to the subject yet you claim that I have my facts wrong.





5. I also cited the movement to make Cuba a slave state.


6. Preventing slavery from expanding not ending it was the dominant issue of the 1850's


Which facts do I have wrong?


Its funny how you conveniently slant everything to fit some narrative that you have. If you can I would like for you to tell which one of these "facts" am I wrong about?

As far as me trying to present myself as some sort of "historian" as you suggest I'm comfortable. I'm comfortable with what I know and I'm comfortable in what i don't know.

_________________

LTG is dominating this thread and a lot of people that I like are mostly wrong.

Facts:
No one has said they hate or dislike Lincoln.
It has been repeatedly pointed out that Lincoln wasn't against slavery in the south.
Lincoln didn't start a war to end slavery
No one has said that Lincoln was an awful president.
No one has said Lincoln wasn't a good president
Thieving Bernie is a charlatan

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I left out the part where "historians" and people living in the period considered the EP to be an empty and meaningless declaration.

_________________

They were right.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!

_________________
Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

More information to be ignored.

Causes Of The Civil War | HistoryNet
http://www.historynet.com/causes-of-the-civil-war


Causes Of The Civil War | History Detectives | PBS
http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetective ... civil-war/

_________________

You have said he was not as good a president as. Teddy Roosevelt (what were his great accomplishments) and George Washington, who left the slave question for Lincoln to solve. And LTG blames Lincoln for Jim Crow.

Almost all historians disagree.

And by your logic on Bernie, everyone working for the government is a thief.

_________________
Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

The fallout from the Civil War an the intransigence on the part of politicians (like Luncoln) on the issue of race directly led to Jim Crow policies being enacted. Lincoln was dead yes but the issue that he was afraid to touch still resonated.

_________________