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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Killer V wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Killer V wrote:
You're born male and will always be male. But you can dress, act, and identify as a female. Your acceptance into society is currently controversial.

You're born human and you'll always be a human. But you can dress, act, and identify as a bird (using your example; remove flying from the equation). Your acceptance into society would certainly be controversial (but maybe only until other bird-ians come out of the nest).
It seems as if you just refuse to even consider that you are referring to sex and not gender here.


I'm aware of what I'm referring to. I see no difference between our scenarios.

You're claiming gender is a state of mind, separate from genetics. Being a bird can be just as much of a state of mind, separate from genetics.

I though the correlation was pretty clear.
I'm not claiming gender is a state of mind any more than anything is a state of mind. I can have a state of mind that I'm posting on this board right now or that I'm a pro basketball player and I can be right and wrong about my state of mind. I'm claiming gender is more than just genetics.

What gender do you consider intersex people?

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Hatchetman
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:32 pm 
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Race is far less genetic than gender. The more I think about it it seems like a made up "science" to take advantage of people.

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JORR
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Killer V wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Killer V wrote:
You're born male and will always be male. But you can dress, act, and identify as a female. Your acceptance into society is currently controversial.

You're born human and you'll always be a human. But you can dress, act, and identify as a bird (using your example; remove flying from the equation). Your acceptance into society would certainly be controversial (but maybe only until other bird-ians come out of the nest).
It seems as if you just refuse to even consider that you are referring to sex and not gender here.


I'm aware of what I'm referring to. I see no difference between our scenarios.

You're claiming gender is a state of mind, separate from genetics. Being a bird can be just as much of a state of mind, separate from genetics.

I though the correlation was pretty clear.
I'm not claiming gender is a state of mind any more than anything is a state of mind. I can have a state of mind that I'm posting on this board right now or that I'm a pro basketball player and I can be right and wrong about my state of mind. I'm claiming gender is more than just genetics.

What gender do you consider intersex people?


They're either one of the two.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:36 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Race is far less genetic than gender. The more I think about it it seems like a made up "science" to take advantage of people.
Describe a racial characteristic that is not genetic.

It's imperfect and getting even more convoluted because racial diversity among most groups is increasing but it still is a genetic thing.

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pittmike
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Race is far less genetic than gender. The more I think about it it seems like a made up "science" to take advantage of people.


Race is certainly a trait and it is passed biologically. But unless you are Jimmy the Greek I don't think most think there are genetic differences between races in the broadest terms.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
They're either one of the two.
Why do they get to choose?

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Hatchetman
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:49 pm 
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Sitting at the airport .....half the guys here you'd have no clue what "race" they are in the conventional sense.

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pittmike
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Sitting at the airport .....half the guys here you'd have no clue what "race" they are in the conventional sense.


The answer is we are the human race brother.

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WaitingforRuffcorn
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Race is far less genetic than gender. The more I think about it it seems like a made up "science" to take advantage of people.
Describe a racial characteristic that is not genetic.

It's imperfect and getting even more convoluted because racial diversity among most groups is increasing but it still is a genetic thing.


What's a racial characteristic?

This debate is about identity. If we say it's ok for a boy to take on the female gender then it seem hypocritical to say someone is wrong so identify as a different race and alter their appearance to fit in with that group. We've already chosen to ignore biology in the first instance.

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Douchebag
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:54 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Race is far less genetic than gender. The more I think about it it seems like a made up "science" to take advantage of people.
Describe a racial characteristic that is not genetic.

Liking fried chicken and watermelon.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:03 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Sitting at the airport .....half the guys here you'd have no clue what "race" they are in the conventional sense.
That isn't an answer.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:04 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Race is far less genetic than gender. The more I think about it it seems like a made up "science" to take advantage of people.
Describe a racial characteristic that is not genetic.

It's imperfect and getting even more convoluted because racial diversity among most groups is increasing but it still is a genetic thing.


What's a racial characteristic?

This debate is about identity. If we say it's ok for a boy to take on the female gender then it seem hypocritical to say someone is wrong so identify as a different race and alter their appearance to fit in with that group. We've already chosen to ignore biology in the first instance.
Ask the guy who said race is far less genetic than gender what he was referring to then because every characteristic used to identify a race is genetic.

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:05 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Sitting at the airport .....half the guys here you'd have no clue what "race" they are in the conventional sense.


The answer is we are the human race brother.
Long commute home?

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Hatchetman
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:07 pm 
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You have no authority to assign someone's race.

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JORR
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:09 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
They're either one of the two.
Why do they get to choose?



I'm not an expert on this subject by any means, but this is what I gather from the things I have read. The doctor and their parents usually make the call soon after birth. I believe most often they are assigned the female gender as the male organs are usually underdeveloped. I'm sure there are examples of intersex people who have lived as females and felt like males, but I think that most often they are comfortable as females. That's likely due to testosterone levels.

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 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:10 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Sitting at the airport .....half the guys here you'd have no clue what "race" they are in the conventional sense.


The answer is we are the human race brother.
Long commute home?


:lol:

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Brick
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
They're either one of the two.
Why do they get to choose?



I'm not an expert on this subject by any means, but this is what I gather from the things I have read. The doctor and their parents usually make the call soon after birth. I believe most often they are assigned the female gender as the male organs are usually underdeveloped. I'm sure there are examples of intersex people who have lived as females and felt like males, but I think that most often they are comfortable as females. That's likely due to testosterone levels.
Doesn't sound genetic to me.

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Jaw Breaker
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
pittmike wrote:
You are really being a goof. I am saying gays do not choose. I am saying other concerns (pick any) would have advantages similar to gays being defined in the born that way class rather than the choose to be something class.
You are being vague here so I am looking for a solid example that explains what you are saying. I understand you are playing devil's advocate but I'm trying to get a handle on what you are saying.

You mentioned homosexuality so I used that as an example. You can use any group you want to actually explain it.


Rick nothing is vague. Being homosexual is not a choice. It is accepted they are born that way. Therefore, they are a protected class. The same for this is true for a minority race. Now follow me closely. If it is debatable whether being another cause, like say a cross dresser to make it simpler for everyone, is a choice or genetic then is not clear they are a protected class. By that I very clearly am stating then without such protection bakers, wing nuts and politicians can deny special accommodation.

So regardless where else this thread goes in the discussion of transgender and genetic versus choice it is a big deal for those reasons. Again, for the sake of this post I am not taking a side. From the transgender side they wish to be viewed as born that way and there is an advantage to that. From the choice side some but not all also gain an advantage to be able to deny transgender in some way.
Crossdresser is good too. What rights should they not have?

I understand you are not taking a side but you are trying to make a point and I simply want to know what it is. It seems like you are saying that if it is a choice that they should be able to have some rights taken from them. Personally, if someone chooses to or is born with it they should be treated the same way.


Where do you draw the line in determining whether discrimination is permissible (for example, in hiring)? Protected classes mostly refer to characteristics that are not a choice (sex, race, etc) but can also include things that are a choice (religion). Shouldn't I be able to discriminate against someone who makes poor choices? (i.e., they are lazy, or a drunk, etc.) That's where it gets murky. Most people would feel they have a right to discriminate against a cross dresser.

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JORR
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:14 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
I am saying gays do not choose.


There's no science to support the idea that they are "born that way" either, but there is a political imperative to insist upon that in certain quarters. I think it's most likely that there is some genetic predisposition toward homosexuality and societal factors in early development do the rest. But that is nothing more than speculation. There is a world of space between being born that way and choosing. I'm certainly not saying it's a choice.

I like six foot tall blondes with giant hooters. I certainly don't choose to feel that way, but I couldn't say I was born that way either.

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 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:14 pm 
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@ this thread.

Image

and some said even the trees had been a bad move, and no one should have ever left the oceans.
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Don Tiny
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Race is far less genetic than gender. The more I think about it it seems like a made up "science" to take advantage of people.
Describe a racial characteristic that is not genetic.

Liking fried chicken and watermelon.

See, that's why The Lodge won't approve me for full-time membership, because I openly acknowledge the truth that watermelon is crap ... it's just a fibrous, nearly flavorless, waterbomb of nothing. The worst apples (e.g., Red Delicious) have more flavor than watermelons.

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Killer V
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I'm claiming gender is more than just genetics.


OK. So your genetics help define your gender. Gotcha.

What was your point again?

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 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:33 pm 
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Killer V wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I'm claiming gender is more than just genetics.


OK. So your genetics help define your gender. Gotcha.

What was your point again?
You claimed you hadn't really read the thread before so maybe start there.

However, you could just read the quote you posted right there. :lol:

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pittmike
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:33 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Sitting at the airport .....half the guys here you'd have no clue what "race" they are in the conventional sense.


The answer is we are the human race brother.
Long commute home?


Sort of but a discussion with obtuse rick is impossible on an iPhone on a bus.

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rogers park bryan
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:35 pm 
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Who cares what anyone else identifies as?

Worry about yourself. You have a lot of issues.
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Killer V
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Killer V wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I'm claiming gender is more than just genetics.


OK. So your genetics help define your gender. Gotcha.

What was your point again?
You claimed you hadn't really read the thread before so maybe start there.

However, you could just read the quote you posted right there. :lol:


But your gender isn't defined by your genetics.

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 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Killer V wrote:
But your gender isn't defined by your genetics.
Some of it is genetics and some of it isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Hermaphrodites are an exception right?

They can choose
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 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:50 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Sitting at the airport .....half the guys here you'd have no clue what "race" they are in the conventional sense.


The answer is we are the human race brother.

Agreed. It's unfortunate Rick insists on dividing us into groups.

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Killer V
 Post subject: Re: Nkechi Amare Diallo!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Killer V wrote:
But your gender isn't defined by your genetics.
Some of it is genetics and some of it isn't.


:lol:

As long as we're clear.

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