Let's test that theory by placing it in the hyperbolic chamber.

If he were wearing almost any other club's uniform there'd be near universal agreement on his defensive skills.

He was just wearing another uniform and he couldn't play SS there either. He wouldn't play SS for the US, Venezuela or Netherlands. He'd probably have a shot if he were Jewish or Italian.

Yes, it sounds absurd for a guy who has played ~200 MLB games.

Since 1984, Matches, you have seen Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell, Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel, Gary Gaetti, Adrian Beltre, Wade Boggs, Fernando Vina, Placido Polanco, Brandon Phillips, Cal Jr.

Those are just guys off the top of my head who are better than Baez with the glove. Baez is certainly flashier and might end up better than some of those guys, but he isnt now.

He is not even the best infield glove man you have ever seen on the Cubs! Win a World Series, and you forget about one of the best 2nd Baseman to ever play MLB.

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There would be universal agreement he's one of the best defensive infielders ever? I don't think so.

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Sandberg is my all time favorite player. Baez is much much better defender that Ryno could ever be.

Baez is elite with his glove at three different positions on the infield. Whitaker, Trammell, Gaetti, Beltre, Boggs, Vina, Polanco and Ripken Jr. are not better defenders than Baez. They're just simply not.

Now you are changing your statement. You went from calling him one of the best ever, to being Elite.

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Who's better that you've seen?

Smith, Vizquel, Simmons? You're telling me he's not at the very least right up there with them? The guy does it all out there on defense.

I'm not changing my statement at all.

Him being an elite glove at 2nd, SS and 3rd is what makes him one of the best infield defensive players of all time.

I don't know. I know Baez is very good defensively. But I've never heard a non-Cub fan call him one of the best defensive infielders ever either.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Oh well then if Favre fan never heard it from anyone then why are we arguing about jt?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Maybe not prior to the 2016 season.

Great post!

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'm guessing Farvio didn't catch any coverage of the wbc.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Poor guess.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

So...
You missed the times they praised his defense?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

No. I already acknowledged he's very good defensively. Do you not recognize the difference between very good and one of the best ever?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I certainly do. But if you said you've never heard anyone other than a Cubs fan say he's one of the best ever defensively then I would have to assume you weren't watching the wbc.
While I know that broadcasters are prone to unnecessary superlatives I heard that a couple times and I really only watched a few games.
I suspect it's something you'll hear more as you watch more games.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Yeah, obviously I didn't watch every game but I did watch some of it and I watched coverage of it. Didn't hear anyone say that. You might be right about the future. I doubt it. That's a pretty high bar you're casually having him clear after a couple seasons.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'm not making the claims, Dopey, I'm just saying that I've certainly heard non-Cubs fans say that.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Even if Baez retires tomorrow, he'd still be one of the best defensive infielders that you've ever seen.

And that was my original statement.

So you don't actually believe he is one of the best ever but just wanted to point out that announcers said that during the WBC and will be saying that during Cub games this year? Ok.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I am telling you that after 222 MLB games, he is not up there with them. Not even close. Maybe he gets there, maybe he surpasses them, maybe he doesn't come close.

Right now, he is not close to "one of the best defensive infielders I have ever seen". To suggest otherwise is absurd.

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Hey, Frankie Flapjacks, it's killing you to not mention the hallowed name of Little Luis Aparicio in this thread, isn't it?

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I am not old enough to have seen him play. From the sound of it, Matches is nowhere near old enough either. Maybe Lil Louie works for you.

Instead of just jumping into random threads to chuck around lame insults, why don't you actually try reading an entire thread once in a while?

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He's very, very good. He's the best I've ever seen in one singular, very unique aspect of defense.
My point is that you say dumb shit like "I've never heard anyone other than a Cubs fan say..." as if that were evidence contradicting his claims, which naturally it isn't. I just wanted to tell you that it's been said within the last few weeks by non cubs fans on international television. You just missed it.
Again, the fact he says it on international television doesn't make the claim true.
But your argument works better if you ignore what I'm actually saying and focus on something you're inferring from what I'm saying, which, naturally, is a dumb thing to do.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

You might want to settle down and go look at the context of this thread. Matches said there would be universal agreement he's as good as any defensive infielder any of us ever saw if he wasn't a Cub. I disagreed and said I hadn't heard anyone who isn't a cub fan say that. You called it dumb shit to say for... no real apparent reason. I guess because I didn't hear one guy say it during a broadcast once.

You have a habit of arguing positions but then denying you actually believe those positions. You're still not saying your actual opinion on the topic, which isn't surprising. Say something worth replying to instead of just calling stuff dumb because you lack the ability to make a more coherent argument.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Since you're asking me for my opinion, I'll be happy to oblige.
I've seen better defensive infielders in my life. Or at least ones with a greater body of work with which to compare their abilities. To say he's anything other than a guy who has a superior unrefined talent is forgetting about some pretty amazing ballplayers, specifically one shortstop from St. Louis who pains me to say is likely to remain the most talented SS I'll ever put my eyes on.
That being said, although it's only really been a season and a half for Baez, I've never seen anyone with the spacial skills he has when fielding a thrown ball and finding a runner and applying a tag. Seeing something like that out of a guy without the numbers under the G column on his baseball card tells me this dude has the raw physical ability to really become elite in every sense of the word.
That being said I'm a Cubs fan. I've seen many players with the raw physical ability to become elite in every sense of the word fizzle out without explanation or reason. 5 tool can't miss centerfielders and starters with the raw ability to throw heat and amazing sliders that can k 20 in a game... it's something I've learned to sit back and wait on.
So forgive me for not just stating an opinion of whether he's the greatest player that ever picked up a baseball, or by not saying otherwise, because there's no way it can be said either way at this point.
Forming an opinion, at this point, is irresponsible and silly. You are pretty good at irresponsible and silly, so I understand you demanding a judgement at this point. But that wasn't the point of my original post.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

This is funny because if you reread this thread you'll notice that all I did was question the statement that there would be universal agreement he is as good as any defensive infielder ever. So we both agree it's not accurate to call him that as of now.

See how easy that was? You're always in such a haste to antagonize.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

What's even funnier is that I wasn't even trying to get into such a discussion. I was only pointing out how hilarious it is that you seem to thing that if you hadn't heard something it hasn't happened. Kinda... egocentric.
Anyway, antagonizing you was worth my time today. I very much enjoyed it and likely will in the very near future.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014