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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:18 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Dennis mentioned diabetes, and that is going to tank our healthcare system in the very near future. There are projections of more than 100 million people with diabetes in this country in the next 20 years. The funny thing is that Republicans not only hated the healthcare plan they also hated Michele Obama's healthy eating in schools program.



Michele's "healthy" school lunch was a joke. Replacing 1 processed food with another is laughable. Look at places like school and hospital cafeterias. The food is disgusting.


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:21 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Healthcare should be a "right" for every child in this country. Full Stop. There is no single debate to the contrary.


Then elect politicians that make it so. It's a perfectly reasonable request. If you go down that road, please design a system that functions well and is paid for. We already can't meet our pension obligations, fix our roads, pay our debts, and properly educate our kids.


A more realistic goal would be to try and move/gain residency in a country that has a higher living standard vs the United State and just let his country fall into the abyss of shit and eventual revolution.


I posted the article a few weeks ago showing the U.S. has the highest living standard against large, first world countries. I think Luxembourg or something was above us. The article though outlined the divergence of outcomes among Americans with the middle class "disappearing" because of Americans moving into the upper middle class bracket. Let me find my original post on the subject.

Edit: here it is.

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=106206

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:22 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Cashman wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Tackling the cost structure would be the best way to improve health care. I'd find ways to increase competition to lower prices.

I'd cut back the FDA as they basically serve to turn pharmaceutical companies into monopolies during their patent period. Notice how quickly costs fall once the generics come to market. The company that produced epipens could only raise prices because the FDA approval process for a generic would take years and cost millions so they had government granted monopolies. Open up the markets, let foreign drug makers sell here (Canada for example) and prices will come down via competition.

We also need to institute tort reform and get the ambulance chasers out of the way. They are helping to drive up costs.

You can fix the costs of health care by removing government hurdles that create the monopolies and drive up costs. My $3600 a month Humira (I pay $5 thanks to Cigna) would cost a fraction of that price if Abbvie didn't have a monopoly on the chemical formula. That's the government's fault since no one can pop in and compete with it.



Isn't this against Capitalism?

Amending Tort Reform....IDK Yes and No. And by Yes, you might be opening up a can of worms. If a tort happens, you must be made whole.

I'd argue that our laws preventing importation of drugs from Canada (and other countries) are against Capitalism. Notice how when the Senate voted on it Rand Paul was fully in favor of importing drugs. Anything that increases competition and prevents government created monopolies is pro-free market in my book.



I am in no way shape or form interesting in living in Rand Paul's world.

Yes, monopolies should be and I believe are illegal. Yes, we should have open borders when it comes to importing. But getting into regulation, look at Wall Street for helping all of this. Look at duty to stockholders over people.


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:23 am 
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Cashman wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Dennis mentioned diabetes, and that is going to tank our healthcare system in the very near future. There are projections of more than 100 million people with diabetes in this country in the next 20 years. The funny thing is that Republicans not only hated the healthcare plan they also hated Michele Obama's healthy eating in schools program.



Michele's "healthy" school lunch was a joke. Replacing 1 processed food with another is laughable. Look at places like school and hospital cafeterias. The food is disgusting.


It was an idea that people could get behind though. No more fat acceptance bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:23 am 
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Cashman wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Dennis mentioned diabetes, and that is going to tank our healthcare system in the very near future. There are projections of more than 100 million people with diabetes in this country in the next 20 years. The funny thing is that Republicans not only hated the healthcare plan they also hated Michele Obama's healthy eating in schools program.



Michele's "healthy" school lunch was a joke. Replacing 1 processed food with another is laughable. Look at places like school and hospital cafeterias. The food is disgusting.


It was an idea that people could get behind though. No more fat acceptance bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:23 am 
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A lot of good discussion in this thread.

Personally, I have no problem contributing to a national healthcare plan as long as most of that money goes to developing preventative measures. Health care has always been a retroactive service: wait until they get sick, then charge the hell out of them.


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:24 am 
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Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
A lot of good discussion in this thread.

Personally, I have no problem contributing to a national healthcare plan as long as most of that money goes to developing preventative measures. Health care has always been a retroactive service: wait until they get sick, then charge the hell out of them.

100% agree


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:25 am 
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Cashman wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Cashman wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Tackling the cost structure would be the best way to improve health care. I'd find ways to increase competition to lower prices.

I'd cut back the FDA as they basically serve to turn pharmaceutical companies into monopolies during their patent period. Notice how quickly costs fall once the generics come to market. The company that produced epipens could only raise prices because the FDA approval process for a generic would take years and cost millions so they had government granted monopolies. Open up the markets, let foreign drug makers sell here (Canada for example) and prices will come down via competition.

We also need to institute tort reform and get the ambulance chasers out of the way. They are helping to drive up costs.

You can fix the costs of health care by removing government hurdles that create the monopolies and drive up costs. My $3600 a month Humira (I pay $5 thanks to Cigna) would cost a fraction of that price if Abbvie didn't have a monopoly on the chemical formula. That's the government's fault since no one can pop in and compete with it.



Isn't this against Capitalism?

Amending Tort Reform....IDK Yes and No. And by Yes, you might be opening up a can of worms. If a tort happens, you must be made whole.

I'd argue that our laws preventing importation of drugs from Canada (and other countries) are against Capitalism. Notice how when the Senate voted on it Rand Paul was fully in favor of importing drugs. Anything that increases competition and prevents government created monopolies is pro-free market in my book.



I am in no way shape or form interesting in living in Rand Paul's world.

Yes, monopolies should be and I believe are illegal. Yes, we should have open borders when it comes to importing. But getting into regulation, look at Wall Street for helping all of this. Look at duty to stockholders over people.

I guess my poitn on this one is that our government has created an artificial monopoly via the FDA. When a drug comes to market, no one can compete with it for years. Even after that expiration, it costs millions and takes years to get FDA approval on a generic that is 100% chemically the same. That's a problem.

Notice how once you get many generics on the market, the costs tumble to the point you get $4 prescriptions and most pharmacies for the generic.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:25 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Cashman wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Dennis mentioned diabetes, and that is going to tank our healthcare system in the very near future. There are projections of more than 100 million people with diabetes in this country in the next 20 years. The funny thing is that Republicans not only hated the healthcare plan they also hated Michele Obama's healthy eating in schools program.



Michele's "healthy" school lunch was a joke. Replacing 1 processed food with another is laughable. Look at places like school and hospital cafeterias. The food is disgusting.


It was an idea that people could get behind though. No more fat acceptance bullshit.



With her, this is the problem that needs to be solved: It is cheaper to buy a processed cheeseburger than it is to buy a healthy salad. Fix that


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:26 am 
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Here is a question, if health care becomes nationalized and we have to pay for it, can we then all as a group have the fiduciary responsibility to condemn Julie for her eating habits?

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:27 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:


It is an interesting article. The part he calls fact 3 though misses the point though. Many people despised Obamacare because of the namesake, many despised it because of how it was passed. Many more despised it because it did not in fact work for them i.e. did not lower their real out of pocket money or provide them better choices. Some were all of the above. Therefore, it isn't completely nonsensical that they may support whatever this new Trumpcare ends up being.

In the end it may end up worse or status quo as it relates to voter's that supported the idea in 2016 pocketbooks and choices. That by itself does not automatically mean the right committed suicide. There are many other things involved in that. The Dems singing the Sox' na na na na song is likely premature.

Huh?

How Obamacare was passed? You believe AHCA was passed in a more transparent fair process?
Obama did not work for them? AHCA will work better for MANY because...???

No one supports Trumpcare. Not even House Republicans. Everyone acknowledges it's a terrible piece of legislation :lol:


You want answers smart guy? I'll give you answers.

One word, reconciliation and one phrase pass it to know what is in it is the answer you desire here. As for House Republicans apparently enough of them supported it. Lastly, maybe it is terrible. I do not know and never said here today it was good.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:27 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Cashman wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Cashman wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Tackling the cost structure would be the best way to improve health care. I'd find ways to increase competition to lower prices.

I'd cut back the FDA as they basically serve to turn pharmaceutical companies into monopolies during their patent period. Notice how quickly costs fall once the generics come to market. The company that produced epipens could only raise prices because the FDA approval process for a generic would take years and cost millions so they had government granted monopolies. Open up the markets, let foreign drug makers sell here (Canada for example) and prices will come down via competition.

We also need to institute tort reform and get the ambulance chasers out of the way. They are helping to drive up costs.

You can fix the costs of health care by removing government hurdles that create the monopolies and drive up costs. My $3600 a month Humira (I pay $5 thanks to Cigna) would cost a fraction of that price if Abbvie didn't have a monopoly on the chemical formula. That's the government's fault since no one can pop in and compete with it.



Isn't this against Capitalism?

Amending Tort Reform....IDK Yes and No. And by Yes, you might be opening up a can of worms. If a tort happens, you must be made whole.

I'd argue that our laws preventing importation of drugs from Canada (and other countries) are against Capitalism. Notice how when the Senate voted on it Rand Paul was fully in favor of importing drugs. Anything that increases competition and prevents government created monopolies is pro-free market in my book.



I am in no way shape or form interesting in living in Rand Paul's world.

Yes, monopolies should be and I believe are illegal. Yes, we should have open borders when it comes to importing. But getting into regulation, look at Wall Street for helping all of this. Look at duty to stockholders over people.

I guess my poitn on this one is that our government has created an artificial monopoly via the FDA. When a drug comes to market, no one can compete with it for years. Even after that expiration, it costs millions and takes years to get FDA approval on a generic that is 100% chemically the same. That's a problem.

Notice how once you get many generics on the market, the costs tumble to the point you get $4 prescriptions and most pharmacies for the generic.



Right...but if you create John's dooohickey and file a patent, isnt it the same? (I am against patents on medication BTW)


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:27 am 
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Cashman wrote:
Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
A lot of good discussion in this thread.

Personally, I have no problem contributing to a national healthcare plan as long as most of that money goes to developing preventative measures. Health care has always been a retroactive service: wait until they get sick, then charge the hell out of them.

100% agree


When our company moved to a high deductible plan with HSA's, it completely changed my outlook. We have a well publicized wellness plan with the entire idea being preventative care and taking care of one's self. I lost 35 pounds as a result and dropped by cholesterol by 90 points.

I am telling you our health plan design is perfect for what ails America's system. If I use less health care, then my HSA just keeps growing. I am paying the bills, so I am careful about what we use and how much things cost. We ask a lot more questions. My wife and I are taking much better care of ourselves. We still laugh at our old "fat" pictures.

The best part is my biweekly premiums fell from $240 to $70 with the difference going into my HSA.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:28 am 
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Cashman wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Cashman wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Dennis mentioned diabetes, and that is going to tank our healthcare system in the very near future. There are projections of more than 100 million people with diabetes in this country in the next 20 years. The funny thing is that Republicans not only hated the healthcare plan they also hated Michele Obama's healthy eating in schools program.



Michele's "healthy" school lunch was a joke. Replacing 1 processed food with another is laughable. Look at places like school and hospital cafeterias. The food is disgusting.


It was an idea that people could get behind though. No more fat acceptance bullshit.



With her, this is the problem that needs to be solved: It is cheaper to buy a processed cheeseburger than it is to buy a healthy salad. Fix that

Once again I think our solution is in the markets. Our government subsidizes some really unhealthy foods. Corn subsidies are why HFCS is so popular here. Get rid of farm subsidies and beet sugar makes a return.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:28 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Health care cannot be a "right" anymore than cheeseburgers from McDonald's are a "right." We should provide health care to everyone, IMO, but that doesn't make it a right.


That is the way I feel it is most accurately explained.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:30 am 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Health care cannot be a "right" anymore than cheeseburgers from McDonald's are a "right." We should provide health care to everyone, IMO, but that doesn't make it a right.


I agree we should provide healthcare to everyone...the question is how much healthcare is someone entitled to. The current system, as you and Dennis point out, creates an extreme over-consumption of healthcare. It also results in an over-compensation to doctors and other providers. Comparing the health care systems/costs/mortality of rest of the world to us is not useful, because the rest of the world benefits from our pharma innovation, the rest of the world pays their health care providers much less, and the rest of the world doesn't have nearly the poor diets and lack of exercise as Americans.

The rising costs can be attributed to the influx of "free money" similar to the rising costs of higher education. The more money that is thrown to people in the form of student loans, subsidies, or "insurance" doesn't ultimately help...all it does is encourage the providers to jack up prices.



I have felt and said this many times.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:31 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Health care cannot be a "right" anymore than cheeseburgers from McDonald's are a "right." We should provide health care to everyone, IMO, but that doesn't make it a right.


I agree we should provide healthcare to everyone...the question is how much healthcare is someone entitled to. The current system, as you and Dennis point out, creates an extreme over-consumption of healthcare. It also results in an over-compensation to doctors and other providers. Comparing the health care systems/costs/mortality of rest of the world to us is not useful, because the rest of the world benefits from our pharma innovation, the rest of the world pays their health care providers much less, and the rest of the world doesn't have nearly the poor diets and lack of exercise as Americans.

The rising costs can be attributed to the influx of "free money" similar to the rising costs of higher education. The more money that is thrown to people in the form of student loans, subsidies, or "insurance" doesn't ultimately help...all it does is encourage the providers to jack up prices.



I have felt and said this many times.
The general rule is that when a product has government subsidies and interference in the marketplace, the costs will rise without limit.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:32 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:

A more realistic goal would be to try and move/gain residency in a country that has a higher living standard vs the United State and just let his country fall into the abyss of shit and eventual revolution.


can you get on that ASAP ?


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:32 am 
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Cashman wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Cashman wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Most large corporations, like mine, are self insured. Our plan is administered by United Health. Network access has never been an issue/



Have you used it for mental health care? Find a primary care doctor?


I used mine for a therapist when my dad got real sick. Worked beautifully.



Let me say this...

I am not saying you can not use it for mental health services. For let's say the better doctors/therapists, UnitedHealthcare is not gonna work.


You were just told by two people it works fine. Possibly, it is only them two but unlikely. Yet you still argue with them they are wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:35 am 
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To get back to Jorr's article. I do believe we are in the midst of an era where Karl Marx will have been proven right about many criticisms of capitalism and democracy. The problem is I don't think he provided a viable blueprint for the next steps.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:36 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Tackling the cost structure would be the best way to improve health care. I'd find ways to increase competition to lower prices.


Not talking about people here but you never see this talked about ever. No one in the last 10 years has seriously proposed in Washington dealing with lawyer reform, malpractice issues or most other possible changes that could help. They wrongly assume just get people more of what is not working. If you watched your local news last evening after this all you saw (from my tv) was what are people losing. Never how can it be fixed or even if this might fix anything at all. What made the what are people losing part worse was they have no idea yet.

At the time I said many times the government would have been much better off just cutting people checks to Blue Cross than what is going on now.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:37 am 
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Bagels wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:

A more realistic goal would be to try and move/gain residency in a country that has a higher living standard vs the United State and just let his country fall into the abyss of shit and eventual revolution.


can you get on that ASAP ?


Are you sure? Revolution can get messy.


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:39 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
That's a pretty obtuse angle. I'm pretty sure you know what I mean. If a child in a family that lives below the poverty line has cancer, they should have the "right" to see the best doctors in the world. Alos just not labor(doctor services), but the best chemo drugs available as well. They have the "right" to get those, no questions asked. The same quality of care that millionaires get. You can play the "pick yourself's up by the bootstraps and earn it" card for adults, but not with kids.


You are playing a card that shouldn't be played. Not many people have a right to get the best doctors nor are many people with money getting it either. My example I am doing just fine. If I get cancer or a heart problem I do not have the right or an insurance company flying me to Mayo or Johns Hopkins for immediate care.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:40 am 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
To get back to Jorr's article. I do believe we are in the midst of an era where Karl Marx will have been proven right about many criticisms of capitalism and democracy. The problem is I don't think he provided a viable blueprint for the next steps.



I am definitely concerned about democracy. As for capitalism, I just don't see another viable economic system. Capital must be allocated by risk seeking individuals and prices must be set by market conditions. Any system that tries to alter that will produce shortages and spend money on white elephants. Our system is inherently unfair on many levels (with education equality being my biggest concern), but I have yet to see a different one that produces the economic progress found in America.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:41 am 
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denisdman wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Dennis mentioned diabetes, and that is going to tank our healthcare system in the very near future. There are projections of more than 100 million people with diabetes in this country in the next 20 years. The funny thing is that Republicans not only hated the healthcare plan they also hated Michele Obama's healthy eating in schools program.


Ruff, real Republicans do not want the Federal Government trying to solve every problem.

But Republicans in general hated anything the Obamas did. I thought her initiative was great.


Just for accuracy I have many varied politically striped people in my life. I heard from the entire spectrum that the changes made to school lunches were unacceptable as well as being wasted and not eaten. Likely not her fault but it didn't work for our spoiled society.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:42 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Healthcare should be a "right" for every child in this country. Full Stop. There is no single debate to the contrary.


Then elect politicians that make it so. It's a perfectly reasonable request. If you go down that road, please design a system that functions well and is paid for. We already can't meet our pension obligations, fix our roads, pay our debts, and properly educate our kids.


A more realistic goal would be to try and move/gain residency in a country that has a higher living standard vs the United State and just let his country fall into the abyss of shit and eventual revolution.



Sweden or Finland will not take you.

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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:43 am 
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Healthier lifestyles make preventable diseases (that account for the majority of drug costs) obsolete. Preventable cancers included.

If we continue to research ways to make healthcare cost less for people's bad decisions, we'll never find an acceptable answer across the board.


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:46 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Cashman wrote:
Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
A lot of good discussion in this thread.

Personally, I have no problem contributing to a national healthcare plan as long as most of that money goes to developing preventative measures. Health care has always been a retroactive service: wait until they get sick, then charge the hell out of them.

100% agree


When our company moved to a high deductible plan with HSA's, it completely changed my outlook. We have a well publicized wellness plan with the entire idea being preventative care and taking care of one's self. I lost 35 pounds as a result and dropped by cholesterol by 90 points.

I am telling you our health plan design is perfect for what ails America's system. If I use less health care, then my HSA just keeps growing. I am paying the bills, so I am careful about what we use and how much things cost. We ask a lot more questions. My wife and I are taking much better care of ourselves. We still laugh at our old "fat" pictures.

The best part is my biweekly premiums fell from $240 to $70 with the difference going into my HSA.


We moved to a high deductible plan with HSAs and the biweekly premiums still skyrocketed. I couldn't afford to put extra in the HSA.

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drinky wrote:
If you hate Laurence, then don't listen - don't comment. When he co-hosts the B&B show, take that day off ... listen to an old podcast of a Bernstein solo show and jerk off all day.


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:48 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Cashman wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Cashman wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Most large corporations, like mine, are self insured. Our plan is administered by United Health. Network access has never been an issue/



Have you used it for mental health care? Find a primary care doctor?


I used mine for a therapist when my dad got real sick. Worked beautifully.



Let me say this...

I am not saying you can not use it for mental health services. For let's say the better doctors/therapists, UnitedHealthcare is not gonna work.


You were just told by two people it works fine. Possibly, it is only them two but unlikely. Yet you still argue with them they are wrong.



I was specifically told but multiple doctors that their payout is not good, and that they discriminate because of United.


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 Post subject: Re: GOP Congress
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:49 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
That's a pretty obtuse angle. I'm pretty sure you know what I mean. If a child in a family that lives below the poverty line has cancer, they should have the "right" to see the best doctors in the world. Alos just not labor(doctor services), but the best chemo drugs available as well. They have the "right" to get those, no questions asked. The same quality of care that millionaires get. You can play the "pick yourself's up by the bootstraps and earn it" card for adults, but not with kids.


You are playing a card that shouldn't be played. Not many people have a right to get the best doctors nor are many people with money getting it either. My example I am doing just fine. If I get cancer or a heart problem I do not have the right or an insurance company flying me to Mayo or Johns Hopkins for immediate care.


As an adult, if I couldn't get to Mayo or John's Hopkins, (myself) I agree. But either of my kids. They are going if they need it. If I can't pay for it, or my insurance won't I'll fucking go deznel washington to get it done.


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