The guys you're throwing out there weren't two way players. The case for Jordan is he's the greatest scorer in the history of the league, was the most dominant two way player of his era, proved with seasons like '87 that he can stuff the stat sheet if that was his only goal, and was 6-0 in the Finals and was the best player on each title team(as recognized by 6 Finals MVPs, an accomplishment not seen since the days of only 8-10 teams in the entire league and not likely to be seen again for a long time.

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So what? Jordan has a higher career average. If we really want to go down this road, Wilt had one season where he had 8.6 and Jordan had one where he had 8.0. Jordan also did that playing 6 less minutes a game.

So, once again, did you every hear anyone complain that Jordan didn't get enough rebounds?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Kareem was the best player on the Lakers for a while. Besided we define greatness by winning in most sports. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't call Brady the best QB ever.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

You getting ready to make the case Jordan's teammates were better than Magic's?

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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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That's not true.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Of course it is. You cant find anyone who thinks Magic Johnson was a good defensive player.

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Absolutely not. It's the Bulls fan that vacillates between Magic having more help and Pippen being better than Worthy. Not me.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Was Lebron playing 1 on 5? It seems that you had no problem making that assertion. You wouldn't be the first though. It is necessary for this premise to be everpresent in order to keep him in the GOAT discussion

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If you think Worthy is better than Pippen and we compare the centers for the Bulls and Lakers your Magic > Jordan argument falls apart very quickly. That's why it's amusing to hear you complain about the flip-flopping for convenience of argument.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

He could reasonably defend every position on the floor. No, he wasn't a lockdown guy the way Pippen was. And Chamberlain and Robertson were defensive forces. Not to mention LeBron.

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Freedom is our Strength.

You have done lost your flipping mind.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Jordan was one of the premier defenders in the league for a decade. LeBron was for 3-4 years. LeBron got absolutely lit up this Finals when guarding Durant and hasn't been a great defensive player for years, despite the occasional highlight block.

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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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In JORR's world Magic had two teammates better than Pippen, but Magic's 5-4 Finals record is better than Jordan's 6-0 Finals record because Pippen was also the best player on three of those Finals teams. And to top it off, he claims Jordan supporters are inconsistent in their analysis. This is great.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I always felt Bron lost the potential of having the goat title year 1 in Miami. They lost after already having a championship celebration. When talking GOAT, margins are so slim, unless he ran off something like 10 titles, you can't make up that loss.

Every Bulls team beats the Mavs in 6 or less.

Take Jordan from any championship team and put him on the Heat and they take care of the Mavs. I welcome someone creating a narrative that Dirk defeats Jordan in 7 where he gets a combination of Bosch and Wade, or Pippen.

Magic was a good team defender but he couldn't guard a man in a wheelchair.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Two things jump out against Lebron.

1. He has always had a great scorer during each of his championships


2. Third time that a guy that he guards has won the MVP award. (during the Finals)

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Except he did just that and produced more points than anyone he was guarding.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Did Jordan and Pippen ever have to deal with the Celtics? That might have something to do with "Magic's 5-4 record".

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Freedom is our Strength.

Isaiah Thomas

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

There is a Philly defeat in there.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Here is also what all but eliminates Wilt as the GOAT.
22.5 points per game in the playoffs. I don't care how many rebounds you have but you can't be the GOAT with that production.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

No, he dealt with a bunch of different teams that had a lot of hall of famers between them. Teams can't control who their competition is. Destroying every potential rival is part of Jordan's greatness. It's a feature, not a bug, when compared to Magic.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Playing an all-time team with at least 4-5 Hall of Famers tempers that argument.

Plus off the top of my head, he had Chet Walker & who else?

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Fixed.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Billy Cunningham, but he was young

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It looks like that the Celtics games don't really explain that remarkably low playoff scoring average.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm genuinely sad that I missed this thread.

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He changed as a player, though, in his later years. He didn't need to score with West and Goodrich. Still a monster on the boards, and he passed much more. Not saying he was the greatest, but he deliberately changed his game.

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What old man JORR forgets is that the Bulls had the best record in NBA history AND won the title. They were historically good. As such, it is absolutely possible to simultaneously think Jordan is GOAT and that Scottie Pippen was one of the greatest of all-time too. JORR, you act like those statements are mutually exclusive, but they're not. They're arguably the best duo ever.

What I will agree with you on is the perceived infallibility of Jordan by some. There was not a more loyal MJ fan on this planet during his run than I was. I was young, but I think that only added to the mystique. I loved him, and I watched every minute of every game he played during the second threepeat...

That said, there is a decent argument to be made that Lebron is as good as Jordan. I don't personally agree with it, and I think making the argument that he's better would be really tough, but it's not absurd. What Lebron has done is nothing short of amazing. The expectations for this guy were off the chart as a teenager, and he has single-handedly kept the East from becoming a laughing stock. If Lebron James didn't headline these past few teams in the East, the NBA would be embarrassingly lopsided. Basically, any team he is on is coming out of the East. And there's no way you can convince me that exchanging a 32-year-old Lebron for a 32-year-old Jordan (he was 32 in '96 and Lebron has more miles) would have affected the outcome. I believe Jordan to be the GOAT, but it's nonsense to act like there's no argument.

All-in-all, JORR is primarily wrong, as usual, but he is partially correct on that one facet of the argument.

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