There is your answer as to why 1998 is considered a dividing line for the golden era by many.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I get it. They were Michael Jordan fans. "The best that ever was, the best that ever will be." The truth is, LeBron could win the next ten straight and MANY of these fans would have reasons why he isn't as good as Jordan.

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Freedom is our Strength.

He has by far the strongest case currently especially with how you rate Pippen. The only real counter argument is "But Rebounds!".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

He has by far the strongest case currently especially with how you rate Pippen. The only real counter argument is "But Rebounds!".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

So what?

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You keep saying that as if rebounding is incidental. And I don't think Pippen has anything to do with Jordan's case for being the "greatest ever" one way or another.

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Freedom is our Strength.

It's not incidental but it is low on the list of importance especially when judging a guard.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Rebounds are unimportant? Okay.

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Freedom is our Strength.

It isn't unimportant but it isn't that important for a guard.

The major problem is that if you start to weigh rebounds as equal to something like points you suddenly have a very messed up list of top players.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't think rebounds are equal to points. That's why I don't consider a specialist like Rodman a truly great player even though he's probably my favorite guy of all-time. I could never say he was better than a guy like Alex English or Mike Mitchell, certainly not than Aguirre or Gervin.

Still, rebounds are a critical aspect of the game. And I see you now reducing the argument based on position. My contention is that the greatest player is a center because it's simply a more important position than guard. Although, that can be reconsidered for this era where a guy like Curry can shoot an unreal percentage on threes.

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Freedom is our Strength.

Were you Mark Aguirre's PR man or something? I know he's a local guy, but come on... every post of yours has some ode to Mark freaking Aguirre.

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This is why if the argument is "He didn't rebound enough" then the other things he did better more than make up for it.

Of course position matters.

Have you ever explained why Center is the most important position?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

What does that have to do with their golden ages ending? Are they not allowed to categorize Jordan's reign as their golden age?

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They get rebounds.

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Freedom is our Strength.

It was just an observation.

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Freedom is our Strength.

A lockout and some guy stopped doing some stuff for a couple years.

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Well, technically the league did come to a screeching halt; the season was 32 games short. But I know what you mean. Basketball didn't end, but there was definitely a lull in the NBA between Jordan and LeBron (plus the rest of the 2003 draft class). The Iverson/Carter/McGrady/Kidd bunch felt like sound and fury signifying nothing to me.

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That was the year the Bulls stopped giving out free tacos.

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Ironically, besides Shaq, it was also the end of the dominant center.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

He has to first define "Center."

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.

Without making a case one way or another, rebounds are not some empty stat. A defensive rebound creates a possession for the rebounder's team, while an offensive rebound gives new life to a failed possession. This is primarily why Rodman was so important, on top of his defense. If a guard begins to rebound at a rate higher than the average for his position then it definitely adds value.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

There are two problems with rebounding as a stat.

1) It can be a stat of offensive inefficiency, defensive weakness and/or style.
2) The best rebounding teams don't really correlate well to the best teams.

It's not meaningless by any means but it probably is one of the least telling statistics that is out there. Just go look at the best rebounding teams and it looks like a random collection of teams. The Warriors normally are somewhat high up there but that has to do with how many three point shots they shoot and the fact that there will not only be more chances but also more offensive chances since it is harder to rebound the farther away the shot is.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

JORR hates quoting the defensive prowess of a first basemen, but he is fine knocking a guard in basketball for lack of rebounding.

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I agree in general but I don't think this refutes my point about a rebounding guard adding value. It's true the best rebounding teams don't necessarily mean they're the best teams, but that doesn't mean a rebounding guard doesn't enhance the chances of a particular team to win. These seem to be different arguments. Anyway the entire picture has to be taken into account of course, so I'm not going to say a guard averaging seven boards is necessarily better than a guard averaging three, but it means something most times.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Tennis was definitely 70's-80's. the 90's had some good times but there were a lot more personalities prior.

Yeah. The borg vs mac days flowing into 80's is hard to beat. Sampras, although great, ushered in the era of zero personality. I was a tennis dork and even I fell away by mid to late 90's.

A guard getting rebounds is like a defensive end getting interceptions. It is nice, but that isn't how you measure the skill of a player. It's like a bonus attribute, not something you would build a team around.

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"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas