If Thorn traded for the third pick to specifically draft Jordan or something similar then I'd be more charitable. But drafting Jordan because the teams ahead of you took the better prospects is really not that difficult. He just took the next guy available and was really fortunate that he blossomed into the GOAT. Not sure what you mean by Reinsdorf - I think you mean Krause. Krase inherited the centerpiece of the six title teams but it took talent on Krause's part to build those teams around Jordan.

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2013 CSFMB ROY

There have been many times I've said "7 rings" with Jerry and the answer always is "He got lucky by inheriting Jordan". I just want to know who gets credit.

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Rick wants to know which old white guy should get credit for Michael Jordan being great at basketball

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Krause and PJ along with, obviously, the team. I don't downgrade Krause' contributions simply because he didn't luck into Jordan. He inherited Jordan but he didn't inherit a championship team.

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
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Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Old white guys win championships.

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I agree with you. You are a smart sports fan unlike others.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

What would you say about the skills of scouts who placed Olajuwon, Bowie, and maybe a few others ahead of MJ? i wish I had predraft rankings in front of me so I could speak with certainty, but I have to assume the majority of scouts had Olajuwon and maybe even Bowie ahead of MJ. Even if they did, I don't blame them for not realizing MJ would be eligible for GOAT consideration after 7-8 years in the league.

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Ben Simmons is a liability: check
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2013 CSFMB ROY

I think you answered your own question.


Lady Luck, NBA Executive of the year 1984.

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Of course scouts can be wrong. What you were saying in the part of your post I quoted is that good scouts and bad scouts are the exact same. That's ridiculous.

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So you're the Houston GM and let's say, pre-draft 1984, a scout comes up to you and says you should go with Olajuwon or Bowie with the no. 1 pick. Are you going to say he's wrong?

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2013 CSFMB ROY

No, probably not. Who the fuck knows though?

I don't understand what point you're making here. I never said even the best scouts are always right. There's an element of luck with drafting players but it's not only luck that distinguishes good GMs from bad GMs, which is what you're saying.

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You could extend the same logic to PJ. Everyone says PJ is overrated because he always had the best players, but those players didn't win anything before PJ came along. He fashioned teams into dynasties and then everyone applies that dynasty backwards in time, as if LA was a dynasty in 2000 when they embarked on their first journey to a championship under PJ. They weren't a dynasty or whatever that season - they became one over time, in large part due to PJ's stewardship. Same thing with Chicago. MJ and Scottie hadn't even been to the finals before PJ came along as a rookie coach. In PJ's second or third year he won a ring, and now people want to downgrade that accomplishment as if he inherited a team that had already been to multiple finals, etc.

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Ben Simmons is a liability: check
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2013 CSFMB ROY

I provided that scenario because I understood you as saying anyone who said you should draft Bowie or Olajuwon over MJ in 1984 was an idiot. I do think luck plays a massive role in drafting, but that doesn't take away from a scout's talent. Two scouts come up to you and say these two forwards they're scouting are going to be the next big thing. All the things you'd look for are there: quickness, athleticism, height, arm span, etc. They're not finished products obviously but the tools are there. The forwards end up being Dirk and Tyrus Thomas. Is the scout who sold me on Thomas of less quality than the one who scouted Dirk? Why? How could he forecast that Thomas didn't have the heart for the game, and all the other intangible stuff? As for the one who scouted Dirk - he did his job, just like the one who scouted Thomas, but he got lucky Dirk had heart, drive, will, etc., to get better.

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2013 CSFMB ROY

Where did I say anything close to that?

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Akeem Olajuwon was the overwhelming choice for 1 and had Ewing decided to come out early he'd have gone ahead of all of them. Jordan would have been 4 and history would forever have been altered.

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My interpretation, but your point of view makes you come close to saying that. What are your thoughts on the scouts who said Bowie is a top 2 pick? I don't have anything bad to say about then, assuming they included footnotes about Bowie's injury(ies).

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I don't judge scouts and GMs based on one player evaluation. I'd have to know what the guy's other body of work says. Obviously that's a negative mark on the resume.

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Theo

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^^^Cubs fan whose opinions don't count.

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Random idiot?

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That's where we differ. Bowie was an acclaimed seven foot college player who was universally regarded as a top prospect for that draft. As long as my scout informed me of Bowie's injury history then I don't fault him at all for recommending picking him in 1984 right before the draft. He wouldn't be alone.

Now that we're the same subject, what if a scout recommended picking Draymond Green 5th overall in 2012? I think GMs would have fired any scout who said draft Draymond Green fifth overall in 2012, including the Warriors' GM. But now they're "geniuses" for drafting him in the second round. It's all luck/chance.

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Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

No scout would have suggested that so it's an absurd hypothetical to entertain.

Your last sentence is wrong and as I said before, it's a ridiculous opinion. If it's all luck/chance than you're saying you/I/Walt/Ltg could draft as well as RC Buford and Sam Presti.

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In the article, Thorn says he would've drafted Jordan over Bowie so Jordan still goes to Bulls in that scenario.

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It doesn't take much skill to draft Kevin Durant once Greg Oden is off the board.

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I know I could. I don't know about the other 2 guys

Seriously there are some really good Gms and "talent" guys out there. West used to be really good. Presti and Buford good too. It's not all luck. Riley is good too but he has to own the Beasley pick. I remember McHale being a helluva talent evaluator too.

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It does to take Harden and Westbrook though. Also Serge and Adams too.

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OK, but this is why I keep telling you it's silly to try to judge someone based on one draft.

It does take skill to draft Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, and Serge Ibaka in a three year span, followed by drafting Bledsoe 18th, Reggie Jackson 24th, and Stephen Adams 12th. According to you, it was all luck and you or I could have done it.

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What skill did it take to draft Harden, the #2 rated prospect in the draft, at #3? And Westbrook was rated #4 and drafted #4. Not exactly Mensa level thinking to come up with those picks.

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It is luck. Here's why: if one of the teams before Presti drafts Westbrook (totally plausible), is Presti less smart now? What if Portland shocked the world in 2007 and took Durant over Oden. Is Presti less smart now because he picked the consensus no 1 pick that fell into his lap that year?

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

IIRC the Westbrook pick was criticized at the time because he wasn't supposed to go that high.

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